Amtrak 68 dashing through snow drifts

BigLou80 wrote:

SooLineRob wrote:

Jtgshu wrote: It is a lot of fun, and any engineer who doesn't have a smile on while doing it has something wrong with them! (or maybe derailed on an icepacked crossing - they have an excuse to not like it hahahha)

SooLineRob wrote: Or...

Hitting drifts at 50 MPH in a -50 wind chill blizzard and having the snow:

A) Open up the front angle cock ... dumping the 6600 foot train in emergency ... then dealing with an angry and frozen Conductor after he/she walks (inspects) the entire train and resets the 7 stuck triple valves.

Has this ever happened ? other then a cold conductor windchill doesn't matter equipment doesn't feel windchills

SooLineRob wrote: B) Ground out several Traction Motors in the consist, resulting in not enough power to "make the hill".

has this ever happened ? how is snow going to ground anything out ? While I am not all that knowledgeable on traction motors Im willing to wager a bet they are not that easy to ground out, I mean we run trains in heavy rains.

SooLineRob wrote: C) Clog the air filters on all locos, reducing horsepower where you're not gonna "make the hill".

This one could happen

SooLineRob wrote: D) Clog the radiator cooling fans, causing the engine to not load (overheating) and resulting in no power to move anywhere.

hmmm not very likely to cause more then a minor problem. radiators radiate heat snow and heat are not a good combination

SooLineRob wrote: E) Any combination of the above; as well as other cold/snow/freezing weather related gremlins.

Sorry JT, I close my eyes and take a deep breath when the snow flies!!! LOL...

Has any of the above actually happened ? I would be scared sh!tless the first time I was blinded and couldn't see anything. After that however it would be another story.

Has any of it happened? You bet it has. On the RR anything can happen.

The only thing worse that that is having to run at 79 MPH in blowing snow/fog for 300 miles looking for signals, wondering where the hell you are, and trying to slow down for the 35 mph curves ahead so you don't dump the diner.

BigLou80 wrote:

SooLineRob wrote:

Jtgshu wrote: It is a lot of fun, and any engineer who doesn't have a smile on while doing it has something wrong with them! (or maybe derailed on an icepacked crossing - they have an excuse to not like it hahahha)

SooLineRob wrote: Or...

Hitting drifts at 50 MPH in a -50 wind chill blizzard and having the snow:

A) Open up the front angle cock ... dumping the 6600 foot train in emergency ... then dealing with an angry and frozen Conductor after he/she walks (inspects) the entire train and resets the 7 stuck triple valves.

Has this ever happened ? other then a cold conductor windchill doesn't matter equipment doesn't feel windchills

SooLineRob wrote: B) Ground out several Traction Motors in the consist, resulting in not enough power to "make the hill".

has this ever happened ? how is snow going to ground anything out ? While I am not all that knowledgeable on traction motors Im willing to wager a bet they are not that easy to ground out, I mean we run trains in heavy rains.

SooLineRob wrote: C) Clog the air filters on all locos, reducing horsepower where you're not gonna "make the hill".

This one could happen

SooLineRob wrote: D) Clog the radiator cooling fans, causing the engine to not load (overheating) and resulting in no power to move anywhere.

hmmm not very likely to cause more then a minor problem. radiators radiate heat snow and heat are not a good combination

SooLineRob wrote: E) Any combination of the above; as well as other cold/snow/freezing weather related gremlins.

Sorry JT, I close my eyes and take a deep breath when the snow flies!!! LOL...

Has any of the above actually happened ? I would be scared sh!tless the first time I was blinded and couldn't see anything. After that however it would be another story.

Has any of it happened? You bet it has. On the RR anything can happen.

"other then a cold conductor windchill doesn't matter equipment doesn't feel windchills"

Tell that to my Conductor and A/C a few weeks ago at Ventosa, NV trying to bend switches at either end of the siding with a meet with the eastbound CZ. Detector said it was -17. Even the switch heaters could not get the switches to bend. 2 hours later we finally were on the move and we had to be dog caught at West Carlin, NV (after having been stopped by 6 broken rails between Salt Lake City and Elko) and the eastbound CZ had to be dog caught as well 30 miles west of SLC. Oh yeah, cold weather can really screw things up.

The only thing worse that that is having to run at 79 MPH in blowing snow/fog for 300 miles looking for signals, wondering where the hell you are, and trying to slow down for the 35 mph curves ahead so you don't dump the diner.

I killed a P40 myself in a blizzard going through drifts and finding a foot of snow in the electrical switchgear room whihc is the reason why it wouldn't start...........

But even through all that, it was a LOT of fun And I made some OT to boot! hahaha

yes, all those things can happen. And do happen. Differnet types of snow affects things differently. A light powerly snow probably isn't going to rip off brake pipes and angle cocks, but that type of snow is going to get into everything electrical. A heavy wet snow will probably rip crap apart, but won't get into things electrical, or at least not immediatley.

Okay Rob, there are some drawbacks, but still MOST times, its fun!!!! Also, remmeber, im not up in that land of stupid cold like you are Just normal cold around here in the "temperate" Mid-Atlantic states....

BigLou80 wrote:

SooLineRob wrote: B) Ground out several Traction Motors in the consist, resulting in not enough power to "make the hill".

has this ever happened ? how is snow going to ground anything out ? While I am not all that knowledgeable on traction motors Im willing to wager a bet they are not that easy to ground out, I mean we run trains in heavy rains.

[/quote]
I think I remember in the last few years the English Channel Tunnel trains died because snow accumulated, then quickly melted in the relatively warmer tunnel.
I'm going to bet that rain probably flows down and doesn't accumulate around important components, but snow, ice and freezing rain probably build up, and aren't the same problem with electrical stuff while they stay frozen, but get to be an electrical problem as they melt.
Of course while frozen snow, ice and freezing rain probably cause physical problems that rain doesn't cause.

@BigLou80, The right kind of snow can indeed short out traction motors. Very fine snow will collect in traction motors and short them out, rendering the car useless. Funny thing is, I've only heard of this on EMU railcars such as the orange Pullmans the South Shore operated until 1982 and the St. Louis Car EMU's operated by Metra. I'm not aware if Amtrak has ever experienced this kind of failure, maybe some of the east coast guys can fill in the gaps for me.

Tadman wrote:@BigLou80, The right kind of snow can indeed short out traction motors. Very fine snow will collect in traction motors and short them out, rendering the car useless. Funny thing is, I've only heard of this on EMU railcars such as the orange Pullmans the South Shore operated until 1982 and the St. Louis Car EMU's operated by Metra. I'm not aware if Amtrak has ever experienced this kind of failure, maybe some of the east coast guys can fill in the gaps for me.

Certainly happens on Metro-North with the M-series MU equipment on the New Haven Line-- a blizzard of light powder (as opposed to the usual wet snow/sleet/freezing rain you get from a New England nor'easter) can paralyze Connecticut. Think I read that "back in the day" the NYNH&H actually used to fit cloth filters over the air intakes on their electric motors when there was powder snow forecast.

Lest we forget:

GG-1 as delivered:

http://www.webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/gg1_4859.jpg

As modified:

http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/GG1/4903.jpg

The modification of the air vents resulting in a "less sightly' (of what is arguably the most symetrical and aestethically attractive locomotive ever to ride the rails) carbody arose from a powder snowfall during 1958 that effectively disabled the entire GG-1 fleet:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive/pd ... 5F4C8585F9

Jtgshu wrote:I killed a P40 myself in a blizzard going through drifts and finding a foot of snow in the electrical switchgear room whihc is the reason why it wouldn't start...........

But even through all that, it was a LOT of fun And I made some OT to boot! hahaha

yes, all those things can happen. And do happen. Differnet types of snow affects things differently. A light powerly snow probably isn't going to rip off brake pipes and angle cocks, but that type of snow is going to get into everything electrical. A heavy wet snow will probably rip crap apart, but won't get into things electrical, or at least not immediatley.

Okay Rob, there are some drawbacks, but still MOST times, its fun!!!! Also, remmeber, im not up in that land of stupid cold like you are Just normal cold around here in the "temperate" Mid-Atlantic states....

JT,

At the beginning of my career as a young Brakeman, I was commenting on a blizzard to my senior Conductor. His reply was "Son, when I see white, I see green. Snow means money." How right he was!

Another favorite "Item E" cold weather gremlin is the horn going bad. Either getting clogged with snow or, on modern locomotives, the electro-pneumatic valve that releases air to the horns gets frozen. You press the horn button, and all you hear is a "click" under the floor. Stop and protect all road crossings ... overtime and a re-crew!

slchub,

I hope your crew was able to quickly warm up with a fresh pot of coffee after cleaning that switch for two hours at -17. The worst is when the switch heaters STOP working in the middle of the night! The snow blows in over the warm switch, then melts. More snow. The switch cools off. The melted snow freezes into ice. Then more snow on top of the ice. Then the westbound CZ shows up to find the switch covered in snow, with concrete-like ice under the snow between the switch points. And the closest maintainer/MOW crew is 170 miles away...

BigLou80 and all,

Yes, every item I noted has happened to me personally. When a train hits stuff or experiences notable weather, strange things do happen.

I hit a large deer that sheared the front angle cock off the brake pipe at the pilot.

I had an SD90MAC shut down during a severe thunderstorm account multiple electrical faults while the two trailing SD40-2's stayed running. Once the sun came up and warmed things up, the 90MAC started up and ran fine.

I got hit by a trackside defect detector for "dragging equipment". The Conductor walked back there to find nothing wrong with the car; but a large chunk of ice/snow was found lying between the rails. It decided to fall off the car it was riding while we were passing over the detector, causing the false alarm.

Last week, I was treated to the "daily double". My lead unit suffered from clogged radiator fans and my trailing unit suffered clogged air filters and one Traction Motor failing. Attempts at reversing the fans to clear the snow didn't help. When thousands of pounds of snow gets dumped on moving machinery, eventually the snow clogs and the parts can't move.

And last night, my horn quit working because the valve froze.

While lineside photos of trains plowing snow are quite striking, sitting behind the windshield and experiencing it is something else. You ask yourself: Are we gonna make it through unscathed? How deep and long is this drift?

When you do get through it without anything going wrong, you breathe a sigh of relief.

You just never know what's going to happen...

SooLineRob wrote: I hope your crew was able to quickly warm up with a fresh pot of coffee after cleaning that switch for two hours at -17. The worst is when the switch heaters STOP working in the middle of the night! The snow blows in over the warm switch, then melts. More snow. The switch cools off. The melted snow freezes into ice. Then more snow on top of the ice. Then the westbound CZ shows up to find the switch covered in snow, with concrete-like ice under the snow between the switch points. And the closest maintainer/MOW crew is 170 miles away...

Exactly. And with Ventosa being in the west desert, there are no "roads" to get to the siding, except for the UPRR Highway next to track with the closest asphalt road 13 miles to the west. You are pretty much "stuck" on your own at 0400, in the dark, with the wind, and -17. I'm glad I'm in the cab now and not on the ground.

Hope you have a Great Holiday Season SooLineRob!

SooLineRob,
I didn't realize that locomotives were so poorly designed, thank you for educating me. I have several thousand hours of snow removal experience and know all to well about breaking down and being outside in the cold, I also know the easiest way to expose weaknesses in your equipment is to start moving snow with it.

Patrick Boylan wrote: I think I remember in the last few years the English Channel Tunnel trains died because snow accumulated, then quickly melted in the relatively warmer tunnel.
I'm going to bet that rain probably flows down and doesn't accumulate around important components, but snow, ice and freezing rain probably build up, and aren't the same problem with electrical stuff while they stay frozen, but get to be an electrical problem as they melt.
Of course while frozen snow, ice and freezing rain probably cause physical problems that rain doesn't cause.

In January of this year the snow was very powdery. The enquiry found that the air filters weren't adequate. It is hoped they were fixed and the problem won't recur. A lot of Eurostar trains failed inside the tunnel after speeding from Paris and Brussels.

BigLou80 wrote:SooLineRob,
I didn't realize that locomotives were so poorly designed, thank you for educating me. I have several thousand hours of snow removal experience and know all to well about breaking down and being outside in the cold, I also know the easiest way to expose weaknesses in your equipment is to start moving snow with it.

Speaking as an electrical industry lay-person, i can tell you now that modern locomotives are not poorly designed at all. They have to operate in temperatures that can easily swing 150 degrees depending on season and location and in all kinds of weather. Forgive the engineers if they don't work perfectly 100% of the time in every situation, they do operate perfectly about 98% of the time, and that's better than the trucking industry, and far, far better than long haul automobile trips. I welcome you to drive an regular unmodified stock production automobile of any make or model through a 3 foot powder drift at 80 miles per hour for 40 miles, see how long it lasts. Someone will come by to pick you up when the weather warms, till then sit tight in the confined space.

HBLR wrote:

BigLou80 wrote:SooLineRob,
I didn't realize that locomotives were so poorly designed, thank you for educating me. I have several thousand hours of snow removal experience and know all to well about breaking down and being outside in the cold, I also know the easiest way to expose weaknesses in your equipment is to start moving snow with it.

Speaking as an electrical industry lay-person, i can tell you now that modern locomotives are not poorly designed at all. They have to operate in temperatures that can easily swing 150 degrees depending on season and location and in all kinds of weather. Forgive the engineers if they don't work perfectly 100% of the time in every situation, they do operate perfectly about 98% of the time, and that's better than the trucking industry, and far, far better than long haul automobile trips. I welcome you to drive an regular unmodified stock production automobile of any make or model through a 3 foot powder drift at 80 miles per hour for 40 miles, see how long it lasts. Someone will come by to pick you up when the weather warms, till then sit tight in the confined space.

HBLR, I concur. If the railfans only knew what these motors go through on a routine basis.... My only question, and it is a very valid one, is who was the "desk jockey" who engineered the HVAC to vent/pull air from the toilet into the CAB of the GE Gensis locos? It is really a treat to smell human waste in the cab of the motor whilst you are running on a nice hot day for 8-10 hours.

I think so said vent operates in said extreme weather, sheltered somewhat from direct exposure. Could be wrong, but that's my guess.

I know over in union pacific land they can get stuck with an older locomotive out in the snow, and i think personally i'd take an odor in a spacious cab over no odor in a steel econo-cubicle.

HBLR wrote:I think so said vent operates in said extreme weather, sheltered somewhat from direct exposure. Could be wrong, but that's my guess.

I know over in union pacific land they can get stuck with an older locomotive out in the snow, and i think personally i'd take an odor in a spacious cab over no odor in a steel econo-cubicle.

True. And having hired out on the UP before Amtrak, at the very least the UP units have side wall heaters you could kick on instead of blowing the toilet smell around the cab.