Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

I think the bottom line is that, in their current configurations, both Grand Central Terminal and Pennsylvania Station are operating at or beyond capacity. The only NY City terminals that are probably not at capacity are the two LIRR terminals on Long Island (Flatbush Ave. in Brooklyn and Long Island City in Queens) and Hoboken on the Jersey side of the Hudson. Nobody is going to seriously suggest that MNRR terminate trains at LI City, and "caaan't get theah from heah" in the case of Hoboken (for E of Hudson, that is!)

So, MNRR and for that matter Amtrak can study all they want, but until someone comes up with the $10+ billion probably necessary to actually expand Penn itself, or build another Park Ave. tunnel, nothing is going to happen. They'd be better off studying a new Harlem River Terminal with a connection to the NY City Subway-- that would at least give residents of the East Bronx a better way to get to midtown than a long ride on the #6 train.

Ridgefielder wrote:They'd be better off studying a new Harlem River Terminal with a connection to the NY City Subway...

Well, they'd have to build a new Harlem River Terminal as the old one got knocked down in 2007... Hey, wait, a commuter railroad with connection to the Subway at Harlem River? Didn't we try that already?

http://nywbry.com/nywbrr/station_harlem ... rminal.php

-otto-

Ridgefielder wrote:

mkm4 wrote:

themallard wrote:Apparently that doesn't matter according to Amtrak's HSR Concept plan for a new NEC.

If you read the full plan, it looks like they are proposing new tracks at Penn and GCT for the concept.

From what Dutch said, I don't think the problem is track space in GCT itself; it's capacity in the Park Ave. tunnel and viaduct that would be the issue. And adding more tracks from MO to the yard throat is a project that would make ESA look like pothole repair.

Since when would Amtrak bring service back to GCT? The only thing they could run would be GCT-ALB, GCT-BOS, or GCT-SPG, and I'm not seeing that anytime soon.

If MN really needed more capacity, wouldn't there be more physical capacity if a rolling-block PTC system were used? What headway do they run on now? Supposedly with modern signaling you can get trains doing 225 on 3 minute headway, if that's the case, it should be cake to get trains doing what 50 at most on a 3-minute headway or less... North River/ East River isn't as interesting, since they have a much larger set of trains, and have a station capacity issue, not a trackage capacity issue like GCT.

metrony wrote:

andre wrote:well looking a few posts back, theres a current capacity/timeslot issue in penn, LIRR uses A LOT OF SLOTs for the current service, but with the completion of ESA most of the current trains bound for penn by then terminate at GCT which would possibly open future slots for MNCR trains
so this may be practical if ESA works as intended

The LIRR also said the diesel trains that end in Jamaica, they want to bring those into Penn Station to allow a one seat ride.

It may still leave some slots open for expanded service from both LIRR and MN.

GP40 6694 wrote:It may still leave some slots open for expanded service from both LIRR and MN.

keep on dreaming

I have always wondered this. Is Metro North ever going to run onto Long Island like to Montauk ,Port Jefferson or the Hamptons?

no no no and no

Is Metro North ever going to run onto Long Island like to Montauk ,Port Jefferson or the Hamptons?

I believe that service begins after Metro-North starts running trains to Staten Island, Chicago and Brisbane.

DutchRailnut wrote:

GP40 6694 wrote:It may still leave some slots open for expanded service from both LIRR and MN.

keep on dreaming

I thought ESA was going to eat up a lot of traffic? Even if only 1/4 or less of the opened slots go to MN they could still do Penn service. The nice part about NYP direct service is that they don't have to do the whole <30 minute headway thing for people to have schedule flexibility, as it's not going to kill someone to take the subway or a nice walk to GCT once a week if they aren't able to catch the Penn schedule. Most commuter operations don't exactly have that flexibility. They could also theoretically run a 9 car ML set, limited by platform length, not equipment. That's a lot of people.

peanut1 wrote:I have always wondered this. Is Metro North ever going to run onto Long Island like to Montauk ,Port Jefferson or the Hamptons?

They're building a high-speed escalator from GCT to ESA GCT. :D

If they did that, then they would have to be Metro NorthIsland. And that's a kind of dumb railroad name. Seriously, though no. That makes zilcho sense. If it weren't such a technical mess, I could maybe see them running some trains to Jamaica for transfers to points on LIRR. But probably not.

peanut1 wrote:I have always wondered this. Is Metro North ever going to run onto Long Island like to Montauk ,Port Jefferson or the Hamptons?

Why on earth would you wonder that?? I think you may not completely understand the topic of this conversation.

peanut1 wrote:I have always wondered this. Is Metro North ever going to run onto Long Island like to Montauk ,Port Jefferson or the Hamptons?

Whe have something called "The Long Island Rail Road" that already does that, and has been doing it for 175 plus years. Why would MNRR be sent to service it's sister agency teriroty? that makes no sense what so ever.

Ok FOLKS. PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO WONDER. IT'S NOT AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION.

peanut1 wrote:I have always wondered this. Is Metro North ever going to run onto Long Island like to Montauk ,Port Jefferson or the Hamptons?

Yes, I'm sure there's plenty of people commuting to and from work everyday from Wassaic to Montauk to make this a useful service. I'm mean who wouldn't want to be on a train for 5 hours?

Yes, I'm sure there's plenty of people commuting to and from work everyday from Wassaic to Montauk to make this a useful service.

********

For almost 2 years, I drove to work from Brewster to Bethpage, LI. As I worked about a mile away from the Bethpage station and my employer ran a jitney to Hicksville, I looked into taking the train.

As bad as the drive was, the train would have been worse...about 4 hours each way door-to-door (at least I could sleep!).

If LIRR was already in GCT, it might have made (some) sense...it was the subway trip from GCT to Penn that was the unpredictable (in my opinion) leg of the trip...

HalMallon wrote:Yes, I'm sure there's plenty of people commuting to and from work everyday from Wassaic to Montauk to make this a useful service.

********

For almost 2 years, I drove to work from Brewster to Bethpage, LI. As I worked about a mile away from the Bethpage station and my employer ran a jitney to Hicksville, I looked into taking the train.

As bad as the drive was, the train would have been worse...about 4 hours each way door-to-door (at least I could sleep!).

If LIRR was already in GCT, it might have made (some) sense...it was the subway trip from GCT to Penn that was the unpredictable (in my opinion) leg of the trip...

For the folks coming in from the Harlem or Hudson lines, ESA will do the trick. For the folks from the Stamford area, a shuttle run local to Jamaica would allow them to then transfer to the appropriate LIRR train. The problem with this is that there is no wye track right now to run to Jamaica off the Hell Gate, and doing a reverse move in the middle of what is probably the most congested CP in the country is just crazy. If a track could be set up, there's the issue of power. You need gear that can handle 25hz power and third rail, which pretty much doesn't exist. The best compromise would be something like an ACES train with an electric at one end and a re-shoed FL9 at the other to handle the last bit into the terminal on PRR third rail. Either that or it would have to be a diesel train, which would leave a train that's inefficient and can't get out of it's own way.

I think we will see MN service to NYP, but service to Jamaica just isn't very likely given the complexity of setting it up and running it reliably. NYP is a piece of cake, since existing push-pull electric gear would do the trick, and NJT has some used stuff that MN could probably pick up for a relative bargain.

For the folks from the Stamford area, a shuttle run local to Jamaica would allow them to then transfer to the appropriate LIRR train.

*******

Why bother with a shuttle? Just have NH riders transfer at GCT for LIRR via ESA...it's a longer ride for the individual, but easier to manage from a system point-of-view...

Liked you said, the area is so congested...