SEPTA and its Problems (Pawson's take, 1979)

Since my name is in this topic's title, I reserve the right to make some extended comments on the accumulated posts lately .

1.Why is SEPTA contracting RRD? Is it just possible that so much fixed plant elaboration (such as fancier stations) is being/has been done that maintenance costs are very slowly overtaking the more productive costs of running the trains for the public's use?

2. The really expensive issue on separating RRD and CSX beyond Neshaminy Falls is CSX's demand for total separation, for SEPTA would have to replace its West Trenton storage yard (not big enough as it is) from the east side of CSX's line to the west side of CSX.

3. I have written a service request to SEPTA asking for three additional weekday round trips on the Warminster Line to allow arrivals at Suburban Station every half hour from 6:30 to 9:30 am and departures every half hour from 2:35 through 6:35 pm. No response yet.

4. The Roslyn switch relocation, by scaling google maps, was about 2600 feet, almost a half-mile. A late inbound train makes an outbound train a minute later arriving at Warminster than was previously the case. No station platform needs to be longer than 600 feet.

5. I'm told that the Hatboro station side track (north switch recently removed) was used to store the gas-electric car which operated to Johnsville and New Hope. South of Hatboro there was a long stub track used to store mu trains.

6. Don't forget that there is efectively a passing track available at South Warminster.

7. A 1960s commuter rail improvement never introduced here was the full enclosure between cars, which allows passengers to move between cars in all weather to seek seats in other cars.

8. Three-two seating was a step backward introduced here with the Pioneer III/Silverliner II. It's an east coast aberration.

9. SEPTA so far has declined to consider low-floor RRD car design which (properly done)could be a huge step in cheaply making car access easier for wheelchair and regular passengers, too. (They've stonewalled on low floor LRVs, too.)

>>John's point about the legislature not being willing to cede taxing power or other power to regional authorities and/or the counties is still valid today.

It's also correct that if such an agency were to have those powers, its members would have to be elected, and the prospect of an elected transit board is not necessarily something to look forward to. It would tend to be more short-term in its thinking and planning, and would likely be overly sensitive to NIMBY, anti-tax, and other popular complaints (as the BART board has).

I wrote a piece on this for the DVARP newsletter a few years ago. I'll see if I can locate it tonight.

Found it: the October 2005 issue, page 10
http://www.dvarp.org/dvrpA/dvrp0510.pdf

delvyrails wrote:Since my name is in this topic's title, I reserve the right to make some extended comments on the accumulated posts lately .

1.Why is SEPTA contracting RRD? Is it just possible that so much fixed plant elaboration (such as fancier stations) is being/has been done that maintenance costs are very slowly overtaking the more productive costs of running the trains for the public's use?

2. The really expensive issue on separating RRD and CSX beyond Neshaminy Falls is CSX's demand for total separation, for SEPTA would have to replace its West Trenton storage yard (not big enough as it is) from the east side of CSX's line to the west side of CSX.

3. I have written a service request to SEPTA asking for three additional weekday round trips on the Warminster Line to allow arrivals at Suburban Station every half hour from 6:30 to 9:30 am and departures every half hour from 2:35 through 6:35 pm. No response yet.

4. The Roslyn switch relocation, by scaling google maps, was about 2600 feet, almost a half-mile. A late inbound train makes an outbound train a minute later arriving at Warminster than was previously the case. No station platform needs to be longer than 600 feet.

5. I'm told that the Hatboro station side track (north switch recently removed) was used to store the gas-electric car which operated to Johnsville and New Hope. South of Hatboro there was a long stub track used to store mu trains.

6. Don't forget that there is efectively a passing track available at South Warminster.

7. A 1960s commuter rail improvement never introduced here was the full enclosure between cars, which allows passengers to move between cars in all weather to seek seats in other cars.

8. Three-two seating was a step backward introduced here with the Pioneer III/Silverliner II. It's an east coast aberration.

9. SEPTA so far has declined to consider low-floor RRD car design which (properly done)could be a huge step in cheaply making car access easier for wheelchair and regular passengers, too. (They've stonewalled on low floor LRVs, too.)

Ok, I have to say something on this one....

1) SEPTA does not contract out its Railroad Division. The only service contract they have is with the State of Delaware/DART First State for services past Marcus Hook to Wilmington and Newark.

2) West Trenton Station and yard is owned by New Jersey Transit and operated by SEPTA. You're barking up the wrong tree....

3)Give them an idea of where the equipment is coming from, and how you will pay to crew them.

4)AFAIK the station length WASN'T changed, but the switch location was in a very bad and dangerous position. By moving it across the street a train wouldn't be fouling Branford Road if someone WAS late. The crews wanted it and the public wanted it.

5) That must have been years upon years ago. Hatboro Siding was a main MOW staging for that line. It wasn't even signalled which meant forms upon forms needed to be issued to even THINK about using it. The only other car storage on the line is the pocket track at Warminster itself.

6) WITHIN the station itself.... the logistics of doing a move like that I cannot fathom.

7) Which railroad's cars are you talking about????

8) Don't get me started on that one......

9) The METRA Gallery cars and Bombardier's General Purpose car are too tall for the Northeast. Hell NJT was lucky that managed to design a MULTILEVEL car (pet peeve of mine: not a Comet VI, Bi-level or anything like that..... MULTILEVEL) that could be used almost anywhere. And what you're proposing is purchasing a Low Level ONLY car and how will you justify to AMTRAK that they need to drop down Trenton, North Philadelphia, 30th Street, and Wilmington to accommodate SEPTA?

Now, as promised on the "real railroad" issue.

There were a number of reasons SEPTA got that reputation of "not running a real railroad." I think a lot had to do with resentments stemming from the 1984 strike and how SEPTA managed the takeover from Conrail, especially in comparison with the New York roads (LIRR, MNRR, NJT). The New York roads could more or less accept the status quo, contract-wise, since they had a much larger (and more captive) ridership base. SEPTA couldn't afford to maintain the status quo, and they were willing to do what was necessary to get unit labor costs under control. Not only did that result in bad feelings, it also caused a lot of crew members to exercise seniority and go back to Conrail or Amtrak in the following years, leading to crew shortages, and a much younger and less experienced workforce than the other roads. The SEPTA crews didn't look like or think like the old hands at the other roads, nor were they paid the same way as those on the other roads, so they weren't seen as "real railroaders" whether or not they did professional-grade work.

Equally important is the fact that SEPTA was the only system to put transit managers in charge of the railroad. The New York agencies all maintained separate railroad companies with their own management, while MBTA and MARC contracted out to existing railroads. Again, I think some of the "not real railroaders" attitude held against them was based on a predisposition against outsiders and outside ideas, but the managers made some inappropriate attempts to fit square pegs into round holes and deserved a good share of the criticism.

Finally, I think neither labor nor management was as invested in the trappings of the railroad as their old-time peers were. SEPTA's uniforms have always been much less traditional, operating practices were less formalized, and the whole system ran in a less-disciplined way. "Not a real railroad" is a pretty good description to the folks who see those trappings as distinguishing their work from that of a subway system.

I think the complete rejection of ideas and people from the transit industry is counterproductive to a 21st century commuter railroad, but SEPTA has consistently erred on the side of running the railroad like a subway.

redarrow5591 wrote:

delvyrails wrote: 1.Why is SEPTA contracting RRD? Is it just possible that so much fixed plant elaboration (such as fancier stations) is being/has been done that maintenance costs are very slowly overtaking the more productive costs of running the trains for the public's use?

1) SEPTA does not contract out its Railroad Division. The only service contract they have is with the State of Delaware/DART First State for services past Marcus Hook to Wilmington and Newark.

I think John was speaking not of contracting out, but of contracting the network. I don't think that's what's happening. The network is expanding (Newark, Wawa, ...) but not as fast as any of us would like.

What I think John is objecting to is downgrading the fixed infrastructure instead of improving it. SEPTA is guilty of this in some areas (see Warminster), but in other ways is not guilty (see expanded passing track being constructed on the Doylestown Branch). There is a disconnect between what they're doing in some areas to increase capacity and flexibility on the trunk (see additional crossovers at Jenk and Carmel) and reducing it on the branches (Fox Chase, Lansdale). We've been critical of this in our capital budget testimony, and we're adamantly against any segregation of freight and passenger tracks on the West Trenton if it'll mean more single track.

We're also frustrated with how they replace infrastructure in kind (see medium-speed switches at Newtown Junction) instead of finding opportunities to improve it.

I'll take Red Arrow's word on the issues with the Bradford Ave. crossing (I go over it several times a week and haven't had a problem, but I can understand why there might be concern), and having looked down the ROW Sunday, I was surprised at how far down the switch was moved. It may well be 1/2 mile as John said. That will add to problems if one train is delayed.

One of the other stated reasons for relocating the switch was to simplify the crossing apparatus and circuits, and for that purpose, you have to move the switch that far, so the entire crossing circuit is on the single track. I think that was a cost-driven decision rather than one done for the sake of making the railroad run better, and as such, I don't like it. There are better ways of solving the problem, and I don't think they're that much more costly in the long run.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Now, as promised on the "real railroad" issue.

There were a number of reasons SEPTA got that reputation of "not running a real railroad." I think a lot had to do with resentments stemming from the 1984 strike and how SEPTA managed the takeover from Conrail, especially in comparison with the New York roads (LIRR, MNRR, NJT). The New York roads could more or less accept the status quo, contract-wise, since they had a much larger (and more captive) ridership base. SEPTA couldn't afford to maintain the status quo, and they were willing to do what was necessary to get unit labor costs under control. Not only did that result in bad feelings, it also caused a lot of crew members to exercise seniority and go back to Conrail or Amtrak in the following years, leading to crew shortages, and a much younger and less experienced workforce than the other roads. The SEPTA crews didn't look like or think like the old hands at the other roads, nor were they paid the same way as those on the other roads, so they weren't seen as "real railroaders" whether or not they did professional-grade work.

Equally important is the fact that SEPTA was the only system to put transit managers in charge of the railroad. The New York agencies all maintained separate railroad companies with their own management, while MBTA and MARC contracted out to existing railroads. Again, I think some of the "not real railroaders" attitude held against them was based on a predisposition against outsiders and outside ideas, but the managers made some inappropriate attempts to fit square pegs into round holes and deserved a good share of the criticism.

Finally, I think neither labor nor management was as invested in the trappings of the railroad as their old-time peers were. SEPTA's uniforms have always been much less traditional, operating practices were less formalized, and the whole system ran in a less-disciplined way. "Not a real railroad" is a pretty good description to the folks who see those trappings as distinguishing their work from that of a subway system.

I think the complete rejection of ideas and people from the transit industry is counterproductive to a 21st century commuter railroad, but SEPTA has consistently erred on the side of running the railroad like a subway.

One of the few instances where I agree with you. Well said.

Tritransit Area wrote:

swedishmeatball83 wrote: But I digress on one particular issue that many have accused SEPTA of. Quite often, rail folk like myself have been heard to moan "SEPTA management has no idea how to operate a traditional commuter railroad." Instead, I think management does not want to operate it as a commuter railway in any form, nor do they want to hire management with railway experience...How the current commuter railway under SEPTA operating auspices has survived this long is nothing short of a miracle.

Here we go again with the "SEPTA doesn't run a real commuter railroad" theme. What are the major differences between SEPTA's Regional Rail and other commuter rail operations out there? All I can think of (with SEPTA's operation) are the lack of seatchecks (although I could've sworn I've seen them when riding an R7 train to Trenton), lack of bathrooms, and the Assistant Conductors could stand to have a more professional uniform (like the old days) instead of a windbreaker/sweatshirt type of thing. We also have more EMUs than most agencies out there.

What am I overlooking?

Stations are far too close together, like a rapid transit operation. The MU's spend all their time stopping and starting, resulting in SEPTA having the slowest commuter railway in the country.

Those pesky passengers getting in the way again. The railroad would probably carry more people if it never had to stop to pick them up:)

Seriously though, I agree that many of Septa's stations are very close together, that's one of the arguments for 'transitizing' some lines. Is it fair though to say Septa's the slowest in the country? I'd rank the North Jersey Coast Line as being a crawler too, it's defense could be that its nearby highways may be even slower.

redarrow5591 wrote:

delvyrails wrote:Since my name is in this topic's title, I reserve the right to make some extended comments on the accumulated posts lately .

1.Why is SEPTA contracting RRD? Is it just possible that so much fixed plant elaboration (such as fancier stations) is being/has been done that maintenance costs are very slowly overtaking the more productive costs of running the trains for the public's use?

2. The really expensive issue on separating RRD and CSX beyond Neshaminy Falls is CSX's demand for total separation, for SEPTA would have to replace its West Trenton storage yard (not big enough as it is) from the east side of CSX's line to the west side of CSX.

3. I have written a service request to SEPTA asking for three additional weekday round trips on the Warminster Line to allow arrivals at Suburban Station every half hour from 6:30 to 9:30 am and departures every half hour from 2:35 through 6:35 pm. No response yet.

4. The Roslyn switch relocation, by scaling google maps, was about 2600 feet, almost a half-mile. A late inbound train makes an outbound train a minute later arriving at Warminster than was previously the case. No station platform needs to be longer than 600 feet.

5. I'm told that the Hatboro station side track (north switch recently removed) was used to store the gas-electric car which operated to Johnsville and New Hope. South of Hatboro there was a long stub track used to store mu trains.

6. Don't forget that there is effectively a passing track available at South Warminster.

7. A 1960s commuter rail improvement never introduced here was the full enclosure between cars, which allows passengers to move between cars in all weather to seek seats in other cars.

8. Three-two seating was a step backward introduced here with the Pioneer III/Silverliner II. It's an east coast aberration.

9. SEPTA so far has declined to consider low-floor RRD car design which (properly done)could be a huge step in cheaply making car access easier for wheelchair and regular passengers, too. (They've stonewalled on low floor LRVs, too.)

Ok, I have to say something on this one....

1) SEPTA does not contract out its Railroad Division. The only service contract they have is with the State of Delaware/DART First State for services past Marcus Hook to Wilmington and Newark.

2) West Trenton Station and yard is owned by New Jersey Transit and operated by SEPTA. You're barking up the wrong tree....

3) Give them an idea of where the equipment is coming from, and how you will pay to crew them.

4)AFAIK the station length WASN'T changed, but the switch location was in a very bad and dangerous position. By moving it across the street a train wouldn't be fouling Branford Road if someone WAS late. The crews wanted it and the public wanted it.

5) That must have been years upon years ago. Hatboro Siding was a main MOW staging for that line. It wasn't even signalled which meant forms upon forms needed to be issued to even THINK about using it. The only other car storage on the line is the pocket track at Warminster itself.

6) WITHIN the station itself.... the logistics of doing a move like that I cannot fathom.

7) Which railroad's cars are you talking about????

8) Don't get me started on that one......

9) The METRA Gallery cars and Bombardier's General Purpose car are too tall for the Northeast. Hell NJT was lucky that managed to design a MULTILEVEL car (pet peeve of mine: not a Comet VI, Bi-level or anything like that..... MULTILEVEL) that could be used almost anywhere. And what you're proposing is purchasing a Low Level ONLY car and how will you justify to AMTRAK that they need to drop down Trenton, North Philadelphia, 30th Street, and Wilmington to accommodate SEPTA?

Ummm...redarrow5591, do you even have the slightest clue who you are talking to? Or are you barking out comments? Taking a look at your profile, you appear to be 26 years of age. That said, let's get a few things straight.

Mr. Pawson wrote a highly detailed and respected book in 1979 called Delaware Valley Rails. Inside these pages are more details, history, facts and a wealth of knowledge from hundreds of reliable sources. More interestingly now, Mr. Pawson's definitive reference guide is still the de facto publication reference on the market. Nothing can come close to it. With 31 years hindsight, the book now has an added piece of nostalgia to it, since it was published when NJDOT ran trains to Cape May/Ocean City and SEPTA ran deisels with the help of Conrail.

Mr. Pawson also served as a DVARP officer for many years. That said, the man is probably one of the most credible resources to grace railroad.net vs. a foamer or beuracrat. He chooses his words cafefully and knows exactly what he is talking about and who it involves. In some circles, he is considered a local celebrity in this field.

He is also probably old enough to be your father (Sorry, John, If I have added to your age : )

redarrow5591, I would advise you to watch who you accuse of "...barking up the wrong tree..." as you are dealing with a connoisseur of this region and its rail operations. If you want to engage in thoughtful, rational discussions, go for it. Much of what Mr. Pawson is proposing and suggesting is being done elsewhere, but it is no secret that planners in this region operate within their own bubble and are out of touch with the reality around them.

Mr. Pawson demands respect because he has worked for it, has much credibility, and has the scars to prove it. Grow up, think first, then post your questions to Mr. Pawson. At 26, you have a lot to learn and absorb about the last 40 years of this industry.

Now, to address one questions

delvyrails wrote:1.Why is SEPTA contracting RRD? Is it just possible that so much fixed plant elaboration (such as fancier stations) is being/has been done that maintenance costs are very slowly overtaking the more productive costs of running the trains for the public's use?

By "contracting", I mean "shrinking" or "contraction". SEPTA would rather build parking garages all over their diminutive commuter network then expand it to areas that lack aby sort of transport (since SEPTA is today's National City Lines, they submise that any area previously served by rail will suffice with a bus)

Matthew Mitchell wrote:...looked down the ROW Sunday, I was surprised at how far down the switch was moved. It may well be 1/2 mile as John said. That will add to problems if one train is delayed.One of the other stated reasons for relocating the switch was to simplify the crossing apparatus and circuits, and for that purpose, you have to move the switch that far, so the entire crossing circuit is on the single track. I think that was a cost-driven decision rather than one done for the sake of making the railroad run better, and as such, I don't like it. There are better ways of solving the problem, and I don't think they're that much more costly in the long run.

Exactly, Matt. Far too much siding was ripped out, quickly and with little warning. You are right on the money with this one. There is no way the Warminster line can run better with less track.

redarrow5591 wrote:4)AFAIK the station length wasn't changed, but the switch location was in a very bad and dangerous position. By moving it across the street, a train wouldn't be fouling Branford Road if someone was late. The crews wanted it and the public wanted it.

Really? Funny: SEPTA's official response to the elimination of the second track was that it was done for "station improvements." The spring switch had been there forever. All of the sudden, it is now dangerous? Granted, it was not in the best of places, but it amazing what a fence blocking passengers and cars from a ROW can accomplish. Instead, SEPTA just decided to pull it up and removed the overhead wire at breathtaking speed. Amazing how the agency has plenty of $$$ of remove and trim infrastructure, but never has money for expansion (sorry, Newark, DE does not count because it is on an Amtrak line using DE $$$). Where on public record does it say the public wanted the track removed? And if they did say it, does SEPTA have to automatically do it? The public is screaming for Newtown service, but SEPTA says that is "unfeasible." So in short, SEPTA will respond to public requests...loud or soft...so long as it agrees with SEPTA's agenda. As far as I can tell, the public wants increased service on the Warminster line, something SEPTA says is an "impossibility" due to...wait for it...track capacity!

Taking the second track out at Roslyn enables them to add more parking spaces, because the spaces adjacent to the ROW are parallel to the tracks, and now there's enough to make them perpendicular - or perhaps even both sides of the lot could now be diagonal. I thought adding more spaces at stations that aren't Glenside or Jenkintown was supposed be a good thing, but maybe I missed something?

Old Lynn was located where it was because that's as far as double-tracking got until it was decided it wasn't worth the cost. The new Lynn was located where the interlocking and crossing starts for both Bradfield Rd. and Jenkintown Rd. could be consolidated into one location. The original plans called for it to be a #20 (45mph) turnout, but unfortunately that was changed to a #15 (30mph). I imagine if the #15 turnout was specified from the beginning, they might have located the interlocking just south of Bradfield Rd, where the crossing apparatus and interlocking could be consolidated. I don't know for sure, but the decision to go with the slower turnout might have been influenced by the fact that higher speed turnouts require the presence of at least 2 maintainers to conduct monthly testing and maintenance. They also take a beating and require much more attention from the track dept.

pistolpete66 wrote:GOODBYE WEST TRENTON
Rumour has it that SEPTA will relinquish double track rights to the West Trenton line north of Yardley in the near future.

This is the first I've heard of this! When is this scheduled to happen? Does this mean that the trains will no longer run to West Trenton? I get paranoid easily, and now I'm going to be spending the next 10-15 years worrying that this will be taken away.

There's not a risk of losing service to West Trenton, but there's a risk the outer end of the line could be single-tracked like the Fox Chase was several years ago. Both CSX and SEPTA would find it more convenient for freight trains to be segregated from passenger trains, but it would result in a significant inconvenience to the passengers, which is why there's been resistance from DVARP and CAC when the possibility was first raised several years ago, and there'll be even more resistance if they try to do it now.

Regardless how far back the double track was cut back near Roslyn, 2900 feet isnt going to prevent any additional trains from being run on the line. No one is proposing to run MFSE service on the Warminster line, so even if the line were to get 30 minute service both ways, that section of double track that was cut back 2900 feet, wouldnt and couldnt prevent this from happening. Someone mentioned that south of Warminster station there is essentially a passing siding. True, but its not interlocked on either end and is used for car storage, although I have heard that everything in Warminster was recently interlocked with the line upgrades that have been ongoing, with new signals and switches that have been installed north and south of Warminster station.

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:Regardless how far back the double track was cut back near Roslyn, 2900 feet isnt going to prevent any additional trains from being run on the line.

While it may not prevent such service, it has the potential to make it more difficult--it cuts about two minutes out of the window you have to schedule meets, and if you were to extend the line further north, you might want to move the meet farther up so you can still have enough layover time.

This is why it's important for SEPTA to have an intermediate-term plan for the railroad: if one of the potential extensions of service depends on making a meet on that segment feasible, then you shouldn't be downgrading that infrastructure, but if there's no realistic possibility of such in the next ten years, it probably makes sense to rationalize the plant. In other words, there'll be less criticism of SEPTA based on speculation if they can show the public a clearer vision of the future.