Absolutely Insane Idea #2 For CDOT: ACMUs + Electric Locos

Here's a totally outlandish idea that came to me when fiddling with ideas in my head last night. What if the temporary solution for CDOTs car shortage problems could be by making an AC-DC compatible consist by pairing an electric loco with ACMUs?

The rationale, if you wish to call it that: while in third rail territory, the ACMUs would power themselves as usual. But so they won't be dragging around the dead weight of an electric loco, a fairly small amount of current (that is, compared to the amount of current an electric loco would draw from 3rd rail if dragging the whole train on its own) will be fed to the loco so it will be able to at least haul its own weight. When in catenary territory, the electric loco will haul the ACMUs just like coaches. The advantages of this plan would be:

1. No excessive current draw from third rail – each car will only be drawing slightly more than it would draw in normal third rail operation. High current "arc" problems are avoided.

2. No enormous amount of current should be flowing between cars and to loco – just about 1,000 amps between loco and first ACMU.

3. Problems of gaps in the 3rd rail in GCT tunnels is avoided.

4. Acquisition of cars shouldn't be a problem since MN is about to scrap the ACMUs anyway – at least CDOT could reimburse MN for the cost of scrap for about 20 or so ACMUs. Either that, or MN could be generous and allow CDOT to use cars it already has on its own property now anyway since it will still be running a MN route.

5. Acquisition of 2 regular electric locos should be swingable with CDOTs present funds allocated to that purpose.

6. All electric service is provided in all-electric territory.

But of course, since this is a crazy idea, there are drawbacks:

1. Modifications would probably have to made to the ACMUs to allow the current flow to the loco.

2. FRA may not allow even the "modest" current of my guestimated 1,000 amps to run between locos and ACMUs.

3. ACMUs may be in too poor shape make this worthwhile (between the cost of rehabbing the cars, reimbursing scrap price etc…).

4. Ideally, a DC electric locomotive is best suited to this type of operation – like an AEM-7DC. Even then, it may be difficult to impossible to modify it to be both controlled by the ACMUs in push mode and to get its motors running on a DC link. However, CDOT could buy two new electric locos such as ALP-46s (if only two units can be purchased) and trade them for 2 AEM-7DCs from Amtrak (and should still have cash to spare).

If workable, this idea could provide pretty good service for at least two more new trains or possibly more if CDOT could swing the cost of 10 more ACMUs and 1 more loco. Also, soon to be retired M1s can be used instead of ACMUs. This may just be dreaming, but you never know, it could be just what CDOT needs.

Why would you put loco's on this consist? If your going to spend the money to get some locomotives and your right, you can't have the current run between the trains, atleast not with a drawbar (as I recall), why not just put a pantograph and accoiated equipment on these? Also I think all the ACMU's are already sold, but I'm sure you could pay the scraper some money to keep them.

But you are right, just complely crazy and would never happen. But I like the creative thinking. Why not have some fun and think of these things.

You could still do that, but this idea was meant for a temporary solution to fill seats until the new EMUs arrive.

The following message: Crazy - yes. Possible - maybe.

One idea I've had has been to develop an EP-6 passenger electric locomotive that could operate off both catenary and third rail. Such a locomotive could be used to provide service between GCT and NHV, OSB, NLD, and even to BOS. Since GCT-BOS is shorter than NYP-BOS, 3 hour times could be achievable. But then, such an option would work only if MNR operated the northern half of the NEC, which in itself isn't such a crazy idea "way in the future".

Every day, numerous trains operate into and out of GCT powered by a single P32 running off third rail. Obviously, these locomotives are able to get through gaps in the third rail, right? Otherwise, there would be dozens of problems day in/day out at GCT.

-Jay Hogan

However, P32AC-DMs also have a diesel engine -- if they hit a gap in the third rail, the engineer can just kick the engine on to get through it.

The other option could be, provided it doesn't require heavy reworking, would be to just put third rail shoes on the loco, so while in 3rd rail territory it could draw enough current to haul its own weight -- no bussing of large currents between ACMUs/M1s and loco required (since you'd probably have to rework the loco to feed off DC anyway).

JayMan wrote:However, P32AC-DMs also have a diesel engine -- if they hit a gap in the third rail, the engineer can just kick the engine on to get through it.

The other option could be, provided it doesn't require heavy reworking, would be to just put third rail shoes on the loco, so while in 3rd rail territory it could draw enough current to haul its own weight -- no bussing of large currents between ACMUs/M1s and loco required (since you'd probably have to rework the loco to feed off DC anyway).

True, but I think the point is that the loco wouldn't have to be modified to draw from the 3rd rail. If it did, there is no reason that ACMUs would have to be used. The loco could just haul dead trailors like a Genny in the park avenue tunnel does now.

But then you run up against the issue of the high current draws (8,000-10,000 amps) when the engine is on third rail power and the problems with arcs and such that all that entails, and also, the problems with gaps in the third rail that would stall the engine.

Fishing around for a temporary solution for the NH line's car shortage is a hard job! (Of course, I'm sure the folks that gotta do that for a living know that already, all too well.)

Why is equipment for the New Haven such a hard issue, sitting in the HighBridge yard right now are the West of Hudson cars released with the Comet-5's taking over the Port Jervis runs, and why did the Long Island Railroad sell the C-1's to some junk dealer in Conn. This is whats wrong with the MTA, these people are not working together on anything. Mean while we are being bonded to death to buy more M-7's so the M-1's can be scrapped, not overhauled, SCRAPPED.

Spro wrote:Why is equipment for the New Haven such a hard issue, sitting in the HighBridge yard right now are the West of Hudson cars released with the Comet-5's taking over the Port Jervis runs, and why did the Long Island Railroad sell the C-1's to some junk dealer in Conn. This is whats wrong with the MTA, these people are not working together on anything. Mean while we are being bonded to death to buy more M-7's so the M-1's can be scrapped, not overhauled, SCRAPPED.

The C-1 were junk at the end and so are the M-1's. Many M-1's missed their midlife overhaul. If the overhaul had happened on schedule they would still have a few more years of life in them.

Spro wrote:Why is equipment for the New Haven such a hard issue, sitting in the HighBridge yard right now are the West of Hudson cars released with the Comet-5's taking over the Port Jervis runs, .

The major issue with the NH is that is that it is (AFIAK) the only rail line in the country that has two electric power systems – 3rd rail and overhead catenary – and any equipment used on that line must be able to run on 3rd rail, at least in the Park Ave tunnels. As such, EMUs have to be custom made, and Connecticut was awfully slow to address the problem of fleet replacement compared to how quickly New York acted and acquired the M7s. Now we have to wait for years until the M8s arrive – had CT acted at the same time as NY, the M8s could have been being delivered now but, oh well.

In the meantime, we've got a car shortage. Coaches, as you see, are easy to acquire. The problem is nothing to pull them – no spare dual-mode diesels and a dual-voltage electric loco would take as long as a dual-voltage EMU to be delivered and comes with problems all of its own.

Spro wrote:Why is equipment for the New Haven such a hard issue, sitting in the HighBridge yard right now are the West of Hudson cars released with the Comet-5's taking over the Port Jervis runs, and why did the Long Island Railroad sell the C-1's to some junk dealer in Conn. This is whats wrong with the MTA, these people are not working together on anything. Mean while we are being bonded to death to buy more M-7's so the M-1's can be scrapped, not overhauled, SCRAPPED.

It is not the MTA's fault, it is CDOT who is not playing ball.


Another idea: As a LAST RESORT, once there aren't enough M2/4/6s in good enough shape to continue running service as is, they could devote the remaining ones primarially to running between Stamford and GCT, then have people transfer to non-DM diesel trains (non DM because they would be a hell of a lot easier/cheaper to get) for the rest of the way to NH. This way, only trains with 3rd rail capability will run into GCT, but non-DMs still could be used to fill service gaps. However, I am not too sure stamford has the platform capacity to spare for all of the transfering passengers.

Once they simply don't have enough EMUs left as is, they could start by only offering electric service between Stamford and GCT for reverse peak trains, and as more EMUs die (assuming they have enough diesel equipment), they can make more and more trains connect at Stamford. The commuters will HATE it, but I think we can all agree that this arrangement would be better than no service at all.

RedSoxSuck wrote: It is not the MTA's fault, it is CDOT who is not playing ball.


Another idea: As a LAST RESORT, once there aren't enough M2/4/6s in good enough shape to continue running service as is, they could devote the remaining ones primarially to running between Stamford and GCT, then have people transfer to non-DM diesel trains (non DM because they would be a hell of a lot easier/cheaper to get) for the rest of the way to NH

Well, hopefully, long before the situation gets THAT BAD, the M8s will be rolling in replacing soon to be dead M2s.