Sections of NEC without commuter service

The section between Newark, Del and Perryville, Md is well known to me as lacking commuter service. What other sections of the NEC are similar? My quess is Rochelle to Sunnyside/Penn as well. I am a little weak in New England any gaps on the NEC?

T2

There is currently no commuter service between New London, CT, and Providence, RI. An extension of MBTA service from Providence to Green Airport and a bit beyond is currently in the works, but that will still leave a gap in southern Rhode Island and eastern Connecticut (which is too rural to support commuter service anyway).

Lacking standard M-F commuter service:

• Newark DE to Perryville MD
• NYP to New Rochelle
• New London CT to Providence RI

Lacking standard Sat commuter service:

• Wilmington DE to WAS
• NYP to New Rochelle
• Old Saybrook CT to Providence RI

Lacking standard Sun commuter service:

• Marcus Hook PA to WAS
• NYP to New Rochelle
  Note: NYP to New Rochelle is served by the MN Football Trains for Sun 1pm Games
• Old Saybrook CT to Providence RI

While there is no regularly scheduled commuter service over the Northeast Corridor between New Rochelle CT and Penn Station New York NY, daily service is available between these two points using Metro North commuter trains between New Rochelle and Grand Central Terminal, and the New York City subway between Grand Central Terminal and Penn Station. While the track used is not Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, it still provides passengers with daily service between point A (Penn Station NY) and point B (New Rochelle).

Now this makes me wonder ... which route has the shortest mileage bewteen New Rochelle and Penn Station NY:

Amtrak NEC via Hellgate Bridge

or

Metro North to GCT then subway (IRT routing GCT to Time Square then to Penn Station).

jhdeasy wrote:
Now this makes me wonder ... which route has the shortest mileage bewteen New Rochelle and Penn Station NY:


Metro North to GCT then subway (IRT routing GCT to Time Square then to Penn Station).

Noel Weaver

Grand Central plus Subway, Mr. Deasy.

GCT-Boston mileage 229.1.
PSta-Boston mileage 232.0

Diff-----------------------2.9

(source: April 1952 NYNH&H Form 200 - later issues rounded to nearest .05mi)

GCT Times Sq - walk .07mi
Times Sq PSta- walk .09mi

Total------------------1.6mi

(source; Mr. Google)

2.9-1.6=1.3

(source; 4th grade arithmetic)

As an aside, Mr. Deasy, I note your use of the term IRT; while of course such talks to me, I should note while on a family visit last week, I used the term to both my 2 Nephews (42,40) and Niece (33), all of whom reside in Brooklyn, all I got back was "what's that, Uncle Gil?".

BM6569 wrote:Isn't metro-north planning to operate commuter service in the future along the NEC in the Bronx?

In the NEC Infrastructure Master Plan, Metro-North is listed as "evaluating" the expansion of service by running some New Haven and Hudson line trains to NYP. It may be "planned", but if the studies show that it will cost a lot to add the additional tracks to NYP and expand NYP track capacity, it could be delayed for a long time. From somewhere in the report, IIRC, Metro-North would not start any such service until after LIRR has completed the East Side Access project to Grand Central and free up capacity to NYP. But if Metro-North were to add a 3rd track to the new Rochelle to Hellsgate route, that may well interfere with track straightening plans for faster speeds for Amtrak and reduced NYP-BOS times.

If all the commuter line plans outlined in the NEC master plan happen, then someday someone could possibly take commuter trains all the way from Boston to WAS or better yet, from somewhere north of Boston all the way to Fredericksburg, VA, if not south of there. Wonder if it would be possible to do it in 1 day? Quoting excerpts from pg 24 to 25 of the NEC Infrastructure Master Plan on the long term (to 2030) commuter rail plans:

"RIDOT is finalizing operating plans, including station construction, as part of its South County Commuter Rail service, which will provide an initial 16 start‐up trains between Providence, Warwick (T.F. Green Airport) and Wickford Junction. Future plans to extend service to 32 trains by 2030 to Kingston and Westerly are currently being developed, including potential station stops in Pawtucket, East Greenwich, Cranston and West Davisville.

 Connecticut’s Shore Line East service is envisioned to grow to 56 trains between New Haven and Old Saybrook. Service to New London will increase dramatically from two trains to 24 trains and service east of New London to the Connecticut state line or Westerly, Rhode Island is also being considered. ...

 Metro‐North is evaluating the provision of New Haven Line and Hudson Line service to Penn Station New York via Amtrak’s Hell Gate Line and Empire Connection respectively. Approximately 121 trains via the New Haven Line and 103 trains via the Hudson Line to Penn Station New York are planned. In addition, Metro‐North plans to operate 488 New Haven and Hudson Line revenue trains to Grand Central Terminal."

For the gap in DE to MD:

"Service on SEPTA’s R7 line between Philadelphia and Trenton will increase from 62 to 82 trains. In conjunction with DelDOT/DTC, service on SEPTA’s R2 line between Philadelphia and Newark, DE is projected to increase from 18 trains to 26 trains. ...

 MARC’s Penn Line service will increase significantly both north and south of Baltimore. Daily trains north of Baltimore will increase from 10 to 72 to provide frequencies of 20 minutes during the peak and hourly service throughout the day. Daily trains between Baltimore and Washington D.C. will increase from 42 to 150, providing 15‐minute frequencies during the peak periods, and half‐hourly service throughout the day. An extension of MARC north of Perryville to Elkton and/or Newark, DE is also under consideration."

TomNelligan wrote:There is currently no commuter service between New London, CT, and Providence, RI. An extension of MBTA service from Providence to Green Airport and a bit beyond is currently in the works, but that will still leave a gap in southern Rhode Island and eastern Connecticut (which is too rural to support commuter service anyway).

Rhode Island is a small, shabby, economically depressed state, so it comes as no surprise that there isn't commuter service into Providence. It's been studied to death over the years, but Rhode Island is basically an economic sinkhole.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

TomNelligan wrote:There is currently no commuter service between New London, CT, and Providence, RI. An extension of MBTA service from Providence to Green Airport and a bit beyond is currently in the works, but that will still leave a gap in southern Rhode Island and eastern Connecticut (which is too rural to support commuter service anyway).

Rhode Island is a small, shabby, economically depressed state, so it comes as no surprise that there isn't commuter service into Providence. It's been studied to death over the years, but Rhode Island is basically an economic sinkhole.

Uh ... there's been commuter service from Providence to Boston for a good number of years now. Mr. Nelligan is referring to an extension of existing service from Providence to the airport. If you're referring to service west of Providence, I would suggest that the lack of such service is simply a matter of the majority of Providence commuters heading in the direction of Boston.

In addition to other considerations, any additional service, of whatever type, operating over the Hell Gate Bridge to and from NYP will have to cross or foul two LIRR mainline tracks on the flat (and at 30 mph max?) to reach the normal NEC platforms in NYP, unless some new grade separation is planned.

Mr. Norman, the Brooklyn children of your siblings are probably more familiar with the BMT than the IRT.
Excon90, the East Side Access project may divert enough Long Island Rail Road trains to Grand Central to lessen your worry or the necessity of crossing the LIRR main tracks.

ExCon90 wrote:In addition to other considerations, any additional service, of whatever type, operating over the Hell Gate Bridge to and from NYP will have to cross or foul two LIRR mainline tracks on the flat (and at 30 mph max?) to reach the normal NEC platforms in NYP, unless some new grade separation is planned.

There is a reference with lines drawn in the Track Schematics in the NEC master plan for the New Rochelle to NYP segment for two Harold Bypass Express Tracks which presumably would be neccesary if Metro-North were to run a high volume of New Haven line commuter trains to NYP. But these are long term outline plans, not that solid. To build 2 additional East River tunnels and 2 additional Hudson River tunnels (in addition to the ARC or MTT project 2 tunnels) will take a LOT of money which will not be easy to come by. An excerpt from the NEC master report in the segment programs:

"Based on preliminary service plans and the capacity analysis performed for the Master Plan, the predominately two‐track Hell Gate Line bridge is projected to be over capacity by 2030, due to an increase in intercity trains combined with proposed tentative plans to operate commuter service on this line. This report includes a “placeholder” for added track capacity and other supporting infrastructure on the Hell Gate Line, but these projects, if needed, will be defined in greater detail based on additional analysis and simulation modeling as part of the Penn Station Capacity Study, currently underway." So in a year or two, an official Penn Station Capacity Study report gets released?

I'd hope that the long-term plans involve shifting both Hell's gate tracks south.

If the westbound (southbound to laymen) track off the bridge took the flyover instead of the eastbound track, it could seamlessly integrate into line 2 without fouling up the LIRR main.

Eastbound would require a bit more construction, as a new flyover would need to be constructed. However, looking at Google Maps' satellite view, I believe it would be possible to do this.

Moved to General Discussion: Commuter, Light Rail & Transit.

-otto-