SEPTA to Cut FY 2011 Capital Budget by 25%

Clearfield wrote: I agree in principal, but what about the rest of the state and the highway funding??

Gene London? Really?

I have a feeling IF tolling the Philadelphia Area Interstates was a permissible and contemplated option, there would be plenty of $$$ left over after SEPTA for other projects.

Check the statistics, The I-95 corridor in and around Philadelphia is the busiest Interstate, IN the State. Add to that I-476 & I-76, (the Schuylkill Expressway portion) and you have WAY more vehicular traffic than I-80 which equals more toll dollars. But surprisingly, Philadelphia's biggest cheerleader Ed "Eagles Play-by-Play" Rendell never mentioned it because it was in HIS back yard and he knows what a cluster F it would be.

So the easier solution is to try and ram it down the throat of folks 100 miles away while Eddie with his State Police escort travels at 100 MPH from Harrisburg to the Comcast studios unimpeded by anything other than normal traffic patterns.

I used to drive I-80 from NYC to Monroe County every day. I can't even imagine what a disaster toll collection would be on that two lane severely overcrowded roadway. Consider this too, one of the PA casinos which generates a HUGE cash flow for the state is right there in Monroe County accessed via I-80. How much BS do you think Jersey & NY folks are willing to put up with to get to Mt. Airy when Jersey is expanding their gambling. PA slots have already hurt Atlantic City so figure easier access than fighting massive toll booth delays on I-80 in PA will hurt our casinos as well. So how do we make up that shortfall?

Bottom line, I don't know where the money will come from but slowing down or stopping vehicular traffic in 2010 on our severely congested and grossly inadequate state roadways to collect revenue is a stupid idea. What's even dumber and more despicable is to attempt to do it 100 miles from the area that needs the revenue the most. It's sort of like raising property taxes in Lansdale to pay for schools in Philadelphia. I'd LOVE to see how that would go over!

Like I said again, if it's good for the goose...

...try it on the Schuylkill & I-95 FIRST and see how the locals love the traffic jams and the tolls while the public transit riders enjoy the benefits.

BTW - I might even consider a live Cartoon Corners show at the Kimmel!!

But I'll drive!

Trails? I 've got a homework assignment for you.

1--get a copy of the SEPTA budget, and see what percentage of operating expenses are recovered at the farebox.

2--get budgets or other statistics from the small city and rural transit agencies of Pennsylvania, and see what percentage of their operating expenses are recovered at the farebox.

3--get the budget from your city or township and see how much money is spent managing and operating roads and bridges, and is being paid for out of general tax revenues.

from the Pittsbutgh Post Gazette today:

The Port Authority of Allegheny County will lose $26 million in fiscal 2010-11 unless some alternative financing method is developed.
Port Authority spokeswoman Judi McNeil said her agency already faced a $25 million budget deficit in 2010-11 -- and without additional funding, the red ink will reach $50 million. That could mean cutting some routes or increasing fares but she said it's too early for such speculation.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10097/10 ... z0kT3Z1TUk

Trails-while you're doing your homework assignment, think of Gene singing before he told a story:

Let's Pretend is a story time
And I'll tell a tale to you.
I'll tell you a story of make believe
And all your dreams will come true.
And when the story's over
And when we reach the end.
We'll live happily ever after, Where?
In the land of Let's Pretend.

Pixanne will save us.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Trails? I 've got a homework assignment for you.

1--get a copy of the SEPTA budget, and see what percentage of operating expenses are recovered at the farebox.

2--get budgets or other statistics from the small city and rural transit agencies of Pennsylvania, and see what percentage of their operating expenses are recovered at the farebox.

3--get the budget from your city or township and see how much money is spent managing and operating roads and bridges, and is being paid for out of general tax revenues.

What's the difference? I realize capital is needed but WHY don't ANY of the I-80 toll fans want to address trying it on the Schuylkill, I-95 & the Blue Route.

"Let's Pretend" is appropriate, let's pretend we didn't hear that suggestion!!

What a bunch of hypocrite NIMBYS!

Trails to Rails wrote:Also, athletes pay taxes where they LIVE, not in in the cities city where they work. Why do you think so many of them live in Florida, NO STATE INCOME TAX!

Please provide documentation to support that. I live in New Jersey, but I pay Philadelphia wage tax based on where I work. I assume athletes also pay wage tax.

Clearfield wrote: I agree in principal, but what about the rest of the state and the highway funding??

PARailWiz wrote:So yes, tolling I-80 to pay for transit systems in other parts of the state is a stupid idea, but tolling I-80 and every other highway in the state is an idea that deserves far more consideration than politics will ever allow.

Trails to Rails wrote: WHY don't ANY of the I-80 toll fans want to address trying it on the Schuylkill, I-95 & the Blue Route.

Trails to Rails, why do you think none of the I-80 toll fans want to address other roads? I don't remember reading one way or another if Clearfield's an I-80 toll fans, but he did say he agrees with you in principle. PaRailWiz obviously is not an I-80 specific toll fan, but does support thinking about tolls in general.

I'm not a road toll fan, mainly because of what I think is a poor cost-benefit ratio. The toll roads I'm familiar with for the most part have fewer interchanges per mile than comparable non-toll roads. I think we then either need to put up a lot of toll booths to handle all the existing on and off ramps, or we need to close a bunch of on and off ramps.
I'm not convinced though that putting up toll collection stations necessarily means increased congestion. High speed EzPass is an option.
This might be a pie in the sky thought, how about EzPass combined with Global Positioning to track mileage and charge tolls? That might cost less to implement than old fashioned toll booths.

gardendance wrote: This might be a pie in the sky thought, how about EzPass combined with Global Positioning to track mileage and charge tolls? That might cost less to implement than old fashioned toll booths.

I believe that the idea was floated by the Federal Government to tax drivers based on mileage from a black box or GPS tracking sensor installed in cars. The idea died due to constitutional protections. I read about it a few years ago.

R3 Passenger wrote:I believe that the idea was floated by the Federal Government to tax drivers based on mileage from a black box or GPS tracking sensor installed in cars. The idea died due to constitutional protections. I read about it a few years ago.

I don't recall any federal proposals of that nature, but I think there have been some proposals at the state level (Washington?) and there have been a number of 'pay by the mile' proposals for auto insurance. The latter has a lot of support in transportation reform circles because it would raise the variable cost of choosing to drive somewhere while lowering the fixed cost of having an auto.

1--the way the now-rejected I-80 toll plan was structured, it would only affect through travelers. Drivers would not pay unless they passed two or more toll stations. It would not have been interchange-controlled like the Turnpike, and there would be high-speed EZ-Pass lanes as we have today at the I-276/I-476 interchange today. Tolling the Schuylkill is not analogous to the I-80 toll plan, as the Schuylkill is used primarily by local travelers. Much of the traffic on I-80 is going all the way across the state.

2--Southeastern Pennsylvania drivers already pay tolls to use I-276 and the portion of I-476 north of the turnpike. That includes every driver, even the ones who only go from one exit to the next.

3--Montgomery County is promoting tolls on their own section of US 422 as a means of funding highway expansion and a broader package of transportation and development improvements in the corridor.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:1--the way the now-rejected I-80 toll plan was structured, it would only affect through travelers. Drivers would not pay unless they passed two or more toll stations. It would not have been interchange-controlled like the Turnpike, and there would be high-speed EZ-Pass lanes as we have today at the I-276/I-476 interchange today. Tolling the Schuylkill is not analogous to the I-80 toll plan, as the Schuylkill is used primarily by local travelers. Much of the traffic on I-80 is going all the way across the state.

2--Southeastern Pennsylvania drivers already pay tolls to use I-276 and the portion of I-476 north of the turnpike. That includes every driver, even the ones who only go from one exit to the next.

3--Montgomery County is promoting tolls on their own section of US 422 as a means of funding highway expansion and a broader package of transportation and development improvements in the corridor.

LOL, Dr. Mitchell, I was about to submit a lengthy post in making similar points as you. I just want to add a few things:

1) As Matthew stated, we already have major tollways in the area that carry A LOT of traffic for local commuters as well as travelers going through the state. To contribute to "Act 44", the tolls on these roadways went up 25%. Additionally, we can expect tolls to go up annually to keep up with inflation, etc.

The money raised from tolls goes throughout the entire state; it does not stay in the Philadelphia area. Want proof? Just drive down the Pennsy Turnpike and you'll see the deplorable condition that the roadway is in.

As we have been doing our part, why can't the "other side of the state" consider making similar contributions to PennDOT to fund improve transportation statewide? Why must everything lie on the Philadelphia area when the toll money would benefit EVERY county in the state?

Check out this page for more information on how the funding works and was planned to work: http://www.paturnpike.com/toll/toll_faq.aspx

Unfortunately, as we all know now, this is argument is moot, as the application was rejected.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

R3 Passenger wrote:I believe that the idea was floated by the Federal Government to tax drivers based on mileage from a black box or GPS tracking sensor installed in cars. The idea died due to constitutional protections. I read about it a few years ago.

I don't recall any federal proposals of that nature, but I think there have been some proposals at the state level (Washington?) and there have been a number of 'pay by the mile' proposals for auto insurance. The latter has a lot of support in transportation reform circles because it would raise the variable cost of choosing to drive somewhere while lowering the fixed cost of having an auto.

It never made it to the proposal stage. It was floated though.

Trails to Rails wrote:Like I said before; if tolling Interstates is such a great way to generate revenue for SEPTA, start with the PHILADELPHIA AREA roadways; the Schuylkill, the Blue Route and I-95 and leave the rest of us alone and you can have ALL of the revenue and the traffic & expense that goes with it! Trust me, I-95, I-76 and I-476 are WAY busier than I-80. You would make enough in tolls to buy SEPTA a whole new fleet, resurect the trolleys, give the drivers a raise every year and INCREASE service!

I would point out that Philly and Pittsburgh do have the toll roads already. Just look at a map? Around Philly you have I-76, I-276, I-476, the Atlantic City Expressway, and the NJ Turnpike all as toll through significant portions of the region. Those tolls are only going up and up. I-80 is also the only national east-west interstate north of Virginia that is not tolled. I-90 (NY Thruway), I-76/I-70 (PA Turnpike) are its only competition. Guess who foots the bill for maintaining the road for truckers? Yep, the rest of us.
Just keep in mind there are significant arguements to the I-80 issue on both sides, but I-80, the Schulkull, and I-95 are more of the exceptions in being non-tolled.
Sorry to go off topic so much, but this is an important issue.
Philly is REALLY loooked down upon by the rest of the state, seemingly more-so than other metropolitian areas in the US.

ChrisinAbington wrote:Philly is REALLY loooked down upon by the rest of the state, seemingly more-so than other metropolitian areas in the US.

I can't imagine why?

Clearfield wrote:I can't imagine why?

One of the biggest rural populations in the nation = being afraid of the big city? (among real fears too)