Which is worse for crews? New Year's Eve or St. Paddy's Day?

Everyone: I have attended about 30 St Patrick's Day Parades in NYC beginning in 1977 including 16 consecutive years between that year and 1992. I could not attend the NYC Parade this year because of personal obligations. I have seen a lot of what goes on March 17th riding commuter rail - I recall that many drinkers start early in some cases even before boarding NY-bound trains.

The crackdown on serious problems related to alcohol began with the 1982 Parade by the NYPD and other Police agencies -
There were so many problems at/around the 1981 Parade - things come to mind like a drunken male teenager putting his hand thru a window at the NY Public Library and it was the last year that you could watch the Parade from the stairs at the Metropolitan Museum on Fifth Avenue along Central Park.

I have a pattern that I use at every Parade I attend - go up to 86th Street and gradually work my way back towards Midtown that
I have used since 1979-80 avoiding Midtown. When I was passing the MM stair area during the 1981 Parade I noticed numerous fights/scuffles between drunken parade goers - including a cat fight between two girls that was as bad as anything posted today on You Tube in which they were literally were tearing each other apart. I also recall getting back to NYP that night - as I was passing a Blarney Stone on 33rd Street E of 7th Avenue I noticed three people laying on the ground out front-drunks perhaps ejected from that bar laying out front like trash. There were problems on the LIRR that day also.

Things were so bad during the 1981 Parade that the City of New York informed the AOH that they were going to restrict the Parade to Saturday only unless something was done to control out of control revelers. With the 1982 Parade the crackdown on alcohol began targeting transportation terminals and the Parade route itself. I also now recall that families and others who wanted to enjoy the Parade were being discouraged by those who were out to drink and cause trouble.

I have seen Police on the parade route confiscate liquor from parade goers. At one time open containers were the rule but over time those that do drink will use a cup or thermos to hide their booze - but eagle-eyed cops sometimes know this.
Another improvement was the addition of porta-potties in the early 80s also-some places in Central Park near the parade route were becoming open latrines of sorts.

I now understand for a alcohol crackdown to be successful the message must be sent to those that may cause trouble behaviour of this sort will NOT be tolerated. Overall,things ARE better then back then-but with the "cabin-fever" mentality many had because of the rough Winter we experienced perhaps the nice weather brought out more revelers then normal...

Thoughts and memories from MACTRAXX

Tommy Meehan wrote:

One thing they might try is to get local police to control access to the inbound stations. Kids who are obviously intoxicated get turned away. The local police could also do bag checks and confiscate alcohol from kids who are underage.

Would it take having an inebriated underage drinker get hurt to get authorities to consider taking steps like that? Probably.

When I was a kid, I used to march in the parade with the NYC Board of Ed. Emerald Society, of which my dad was president. The dean from my high school (Pleasantville) would go down to the Pleasantville station on 3/17 and intercept anyone trying to cut school for the parade, and anyone that tried would get a phone call to the parents.

The day to me always meant mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral, the parade, and a few pints and songs with family afterward. A kid will get hurt bad one year, and the blame will start with whomever got him the booze, and follow the trail from there, including the railroad, whether or not its fair to assign responsibility to train crews set up to get people to work in the morning.

ok to last poster ??? what does this have to do with Metro North or railroading ???

DutchRailnut wrote:ok to last poster ??? what does this have to do with Metro North or railroading ???

It has plenty to do with Metro-North. For one, I brought up a way (albeit certainly not foolproof) to help keep HS kids from piling into trains to get wasted on St. Paddies day. On the train remains as a place they can drink without much risk, as the train crews are often too overwhelmed with the crowds to deal with them.

The issue of Metro-North's responsibility to not foster an environment conducive to "irresponsible" drinking, whether it be by underage kids or adults is a serious one. While I personally don't feel the railroad should be liable for accidents involving drunken passengers, it is not outside the realm of possibility for a lawyer to one day attempt to make a case for it.

If this belongs in a new thread, or if my background story recounting my past experience with the NYC St. Patrick's Day Parade was boring or irrelevant, I apologize.

Roy FoyLoy wrote:A kid will get hurt bad one year, and the blame will start with whomever got him the booze, and follow the trail from there, including the railroad....

Actually based on cases I've read about, the one sure fire way Metro-North could probably be held negligent and liable was if an underage drinker was injured after being ejected from a train even if done for justifiable cause. Have to ask my friend WEZ's opinion on this one I guess.

Roy FoyLoy wrote:The dean from my high school (Pleasantville) would go down to the Pleasantville station on 3/17 and intercept anyone trying to cut school for the parade, and anyone that tried would get a phone call to the parents.

Nowadays if the dean did that he'd probably get in more trouble than the students would!

Since I believe it's true, the MTA Police doesn't have the manpower available (or woman power for that matter), I think it's a job best left to local police.

Metro North had published that no drinking was allowed on all trains on St Paddys and even MNCR own bar service was suspended on St Paddy's.
Conductors are not police men and do not card youths, so MNCR does not provide a conducive enviroment.

New Year's eve in Times Square in NYC is something else. Elbow to elbow with people, standing room only. Impossible to fall down.

St. Patrick's day parade in the Rockaways was right down Rockaway Beach Boulevard. It passed right in front of the 100 th precint police station, NYPD. Bars all over the place, loaded with drinkers. Many of the spectators watching the parade were totally sloshed. Some even fell down. The NYPD was very understanding. " Poor fella, he's deep in his cups." and they would pick him up, sit him on the curb, held up by a fire hydrant, and leave him there. Yup you could not get arrested that day.

The Subways were something else as well. The quiet drunks were just left to themselves, to fall asleep. The noisy ones eventually were shoved out the door at the next stop. I remember sitting in front of one of the doors, the train stopped at the next station, a drunk entered the car, came up to me, handed me his gloves, a brand new pair, yelled "Happy New Year!!!! " and left the car as the doors closed and the train pulled out. There I was with a brand new pair of leather gloves. They fit well too. And a good time was had by all.

I just don't understand the tolerance shown to underage drinkers on this day. It is disconcerting.

If the youths at Croton-Harmon were so disruptive that police had to be called, had to physically separate them and herd them onto different trains, then they shouldn't have been allowed to ride, period, that's my thought.

I'll say this, though, the kids are usually in a festive mood. They're loud and crude, yes, but usually not threatening or aggressive. But when St. Patrick's Day falls on a weekday it's a huge pain-in-the-butt for the working people who have to ride the trains.

Somebody mentioned some kids on a Poughkeepsie train got confrontational with commuters. They should've been removed if not arrested. To say that that would only disrupt service further or make things uglier is basically letting the kids hold the system hostage.

Which is exactly what they do.

Tommy Meehan wrote:There was a time -- still within memory for some of us -- when St. Patrick's Day was about the parade. The Mayor, labor, cops and firefighters marching. Televised live on WPIX. I don't recall an emphasis on drinking, except maybe after work your Dad would gather with his buddies and stay out unusually late at a good Irish bar that was unusually crowded.

Like the author of this post (well, to judge from your name anyway!) i can claim Irish roots. That said, I make a point of NOT celebrating St. Pat's Day, simply because I hate what it has become in this country. It's all about the drinking and paints a picture of the Irish as a bunch of charming, twinkly-eyed, song-singing alcoholics. And if anybody doesn't believe that is an inaccurate portrayal, let me point out that Ireland has the lowest ---- yes, LOWEST --- per capita alcohol consumption in the European Union!!! BTW, I am not a teetoaller, i just thought I'd unload about this hot button of mine. I live in NYC, fortunately on the other side of town from the parade

BOTH!!!

And how many of you remember the difference between the Green and the Orange ??? I remember when there was a considerable contingent of Orangemen marching in the parade. Gave lots of cops something to worry about. For those with poor memories; Green was for Ireland, Orange was for England, and the crown.

Steamboat Willie wrote:Someone asked why there wasn't additional service than what MN provided. You do realize that the company has to run a regular rush hour in addition to accommodate with St. Patrick's Day. There is only so much equipment that is left to spare during a rush hour.

As for the police presence, there probably isn't enough staffing to have adequate amount of law enforcement presence on trains. So you have 2 officers ride a train, you are still heavily outnumbered. The RR wants to keep the trains moving and avoids holding up the entire place. The longer you keep them on the train the uglier things get.

That's what I though in the morning, but how about the afternoon? Maybe not being able to get the equipment back into Grand Central in time?

From what I heard and read about this seems like the worst St Paddy's Day Metro-North had.

When there is a shortage of trains and equipment with not enough MTA police around things got really ugly. There is a video on youtube with people fighting aboard the 2:50 train to Poughkeepsie.

There is another rush hour in the evening as well that demands more equipment on the road. Equipment have cycles and need to be in certain places at a given time, whether it be Highbridge, Harmon, Stamford, etc. The company probably thought this: the ridership is going to be very concentrated coming inbound for the parade from 0730-1000hrs, so they run a few extra trains. In the evening, not everyone is coming home around the same time and the ridership is more spread out, so they didn't run extra service. Remember, there are only so many slots that are free for the RTC to route you, especially during rush hour. Keeping in mind what I said before hand about equipment cycles, some trains turn for other trains later on. A PM Harrison zipper with a bomb train, once it deadheads backs to NY turns into an outbound Poughkeepsie train an hour later.

Plus, the RR needs a certain amount of equipment on standby as insurance in case something goes dead in the water for mechanical reasons.

It seems like all the complaints are on the Hudson Line so far. Were the Harlem or New Haven divisions just as rowdy?

I was on train 846, the Poughkeepsie to NY train that broke down.
Kids were running up and down the aisles, carrying cases of beer. These people definately appeared to be well below the legal drinking age.
I never heard anything about alcohol being banned that day. I've only heard that on New Year's Eve.
Needless to say, it was an unpleasant ride to work, made that much worse by sitting still for an hour or so.
The young girl who had to be carried around by her friends because she was so drunk that she couldn't walk was a low point.

It did make me think though that at least ONE MTA cop on the train would have helped calm these people down.
Certainly there must be enough officers to place one on each train in the time period when most kids would travel to the parade?