CSX head-on wreck South of Buffalo - 1987

ok. thanks for correcting me. I do still remember driving south from buffalo, toward to Holland, on 240 and as I approach upgrade and veers to left, the road is now higher than the track. my car was about at same elevation or bit higher than the signal head. I could see 2 red lights on. I thought that train was coming. I kept going south couple of miles and looked for B+P. But I never saw a train before I turn left, going up the hill toward to my Uncle's.

would I be thinking of wrong road? it was clearly CPL- 6 light lens and hoods, not like PRR which have full circle of 12 lens and hoods. I knew that Buffalo line is on east side of Holland toward to East Aurora. and B+P is on west side of holland, along 240.

Would it be possible that I drove on rt 219? It was long time ago, not too long before B+P moved to Buffalo line.

Well...

Holland is on Rt. 16 and there is a spot south of Holland - Chaffee - where the road follows the ex-Pennsy Buffalo line. There was a signal there for the old Chaffee passing siding that I think had red lenses in the PC/Conrail days. When the siding was removed I believe the signal was kept as a controlled signal.

Rt. 240 parallels the ex BR&P/B&O/Chessie route from Jewettville to Ashford; the only CPL that comes to mind was at Ashford Junction.

I think it is possible you were thinking of the wrong road.

Matt Langworthy wrote:

nessman wrote:Wow - so if no fax, then go on your way? What if the phone line was down, fax machine out of paper, etc...? It is almost as though the system in place at the time was guaranteed to result in tragedy. Terrible.

I agree. The use of a FAX machine does raise the question: what system/technology did CSX/Chessie/B&O use before FAX machines were available?

The Northbound crew actually had a set of orders in-hand, authorizing their movement. What they did not receive, was a second set of orders, setting up a meet with a Southbound.

Fax machines have the capability to send a return confirmation message. If the receiving machine happened to be out of paper, or the transmission was not completely received successfully, the receiving machine could transmit this information back to the originating machine. I don't know whether these machines were set up with that feature.

The fatal weakness in the system, as set up by B&O / CSX, was the inability of the dispatcher to "bust" a set of orders, in order to change a meeting point. They had no capability to destroy the first set of orders, nor did the system confirm that the crew got the second set of orders. And that's exactly what went wrong on this day. Changing a meet has been recognized as a very serious matter, well back into the 19th Century. Traditional railroad rule books lay out a specific procedure, which normally calls for the Engineer and Conductor to sign for the new orders, in the presence of an operator. These precautions were eliminated under the fax-to-unmanned-stations system.

After the Northbound had departed its originating terminal (with valid orders, authorizing a trip all the way to Buffalo), a very "hot" train showed up in Buffalo - a stack train that had just been received. Delays to these trains were to be avoided, of course. So, the Dispatcher cut a new set of orders, creating a meet at Colden siding. The Southbound stack train was expecting to find the Northbound in the siding, but the northbound never got the new orders, and continued past the meeting point.

JR

JoeS wrote: Well...

Holland is on Rt. 16 and there is a spot south of Holland - Chaffee - where the road follows the ex-Pennsy Buffalo line. There was a signal there for the old Chaffee passing siding that I think had red lenses in the PC/Conrail days. When the siding was removed I believe the signal was kept as a controlled signal.

Rt. 240 parallels the ex BR&P/B&O/Chessie route from Jewettville to Ashford; the only CPL that comes to mind was at Ashford Junction.

I think it is possible you were thinking of the wrong road.

Could be that one. It's been years ago and i could be gotten mixed up with which road that I was driving on. I know that village is on Rt 16 but Town of Holland is include the area on top of hill between 240 and 16. My uncle lived on top of hill with view of kissing Bridge (wish B+P was viewable but it's down at the bottom of Valley). Only reason that I could recall for driving south on either 16 or 240 was to go to my Uncle's unless I forget about a trip that I evenly went further south. I never drove past south of uncle's.

Thanks for pinpoint the possible location.

jr wrote:

Matt Langworthy wrote:

nessman wrote:Wow - so if no fax, then go on your way? What if the phone line was down, fax machine out of paper, etc...? It is almost as though the system in place at the time was guaranteed to result in tragedy. Terrible.

I agree. The use of a FAX machine does raise the question: what system/technology did CSX/Chessie/B&O use before FAX machines were available?

The Northbound crew actually had a set of orders in-hand, authorizing their movement. What they did not receive, was a second set of orders, setting up a meet with a Southbound.

Fax machines have the capability to send a return confirmation message. If the receiving machine happened to be out of paper, or the transmission was not completely received successfully, the receiving machine could transmit this information back to the originating machine. I don't know whether these machines were set up with that feature.

The fatal weakness in the system, as set up by B&O / CSX, was the inability of the dispatcher to "bust" a set of orders, in order to change a meeting point. They had no capability to destroy the first set of orders, nor did the system confirm that the crew got the second set of orders. And that's exactly what went wrong on this day. Changing a meet has been recognized as a very serious matter, well back into the 19th Century. Traditional railroad rule books lay out a specific procedure, which normally calls for the Engineer and Conductor to sign for the new orders, in the presence of an operator. These precautions were eliminated under the fax-to-unmanned-stations system.

After the Northbound had departed its originating terminal (with valid orders, authorizing a trip all the way to Buffalo), a very "hot" train showed up in Buffalo - a stack train that had just been received. Delays to these trains were to be avoided, of course. So, the Dispatcher cut a new set of orders, creating a meet at Colden siding. The Southbound stack train was expecting to find the Northbound in the siding, but the northbound never got the new orders, and continued past the meeting point.

JR

Thanks for the details. What a nightmare...

Just a quick comment, this whole conversation is very disturbing. I still can't believe that there was such careless disregard for safety or the possiblity of an accident, it seems almost predestined to have happened knowing how the system had so many holes in it. Trajic to say the least, if not disheartening, or maddening.

-B in B

Here is the photo and caption that appeared in Trains magazine. It was in the May 1987 issue on page 17.

Interesting to note that Guilford's four ex-ATSF SD26's were involved in this wreck.

I believe that there were only 2 SD26s in that consist. One was scrapped and Guilford was offered and accepted a SD35 in lieu of the scrapped.

The SD26s were 4645 and 4648, according to the caption immediately below the photo.

MEC407 wrote:The SD26s were 4645 and 4648, according to the caption immediately below the photo.

Yes, I should read more carefully. Was thinking of the four units, saw two, wrote four.

-otto-

Hojack One wrote:Here is the photo and caption that appeared in Trains magazine. It was in the May 1987 issue on page 17.

Head-on south of Buffalo-3.jpg

I'm wondering who's the guy who climbed on rear loco and took picture from above?? I dont think it was one of these RR officials because they would NOT send their photos to Trains magazines. Was it one of the railfans??? At least 3 photographers on the scene... I dont think that they are all FRA, Police, RR officials... One of the photographers have bag what appears to be a camera bag.

were people allowed to roam all over scene (accident, murders, mother natures, ETC) in late 80's???

Otto - S.F. sd26 were mentioned in first page, 2ne message before your first posting. Sign of aging?

In reference to the photo in Trains...
How appropriate that a lone telegraph pole situated right beside the point of fatal impact serves as a cross. Wonder if that lone telegraph pole is still there at the site, or removed during the cleanup ?

Yeah , I was wondering how that photo was taken , things were a lot more lenient back then. I do not agree with the above post that the dispatcher had no way to "bust" the order. This was in 1987 , radios were in use and orders can be transmitted via such. It seems like a dispatcher and crew error to me. We had a similar incident here in Montana , August 1991 combined Disp/train crew error.

bmmrlbnsfengr wrote:Yeah , I was wondering how that photo was taken , things were a lot more lenient back then. I do not agree with the above post that the dispatcher had no way to "bust" the order. This was in 1987 , radios were in use and orders can be transmitted via such. It seems like a dispatcher and crew error to me. We had a similar incident here in Montana , August 1991 combined Disp/train crew error.

Regardless of your opinion, I add for emphasis: The crew was found NOT to be at fault. You should go back and read the official findings.

-otto-

sd80mac wrote:Was it one of the railfans??? At least 3 photographers on the scene...

I need to take one photographer off. The one in blue winter overall had hardhat on. Obviously one of the RR workers... so that leave me wondering who's 2.. one on the ground with camera bag and one on the top of loco.