Lackawanna Limited

I have a few questions about the Lackawanna Limited. Any info you can provide would be appreciated. Was the Phoebe Snow the replacement train for the Lackawanna Limited or did they run concurrently at some period?
When did the Lackawanna Limited last run? And what sort of engine commonly pulled the LL?
What sort of schedule did the LL keep; end point to endpoint?
Thanks!

Pete

The PHOEBE SNOW streamliner was introduced in November of '49 with F7's 801A,B,C-805A,B,C (although the unit designation A,B,C was later); E8's 809-820 came in 1950-51. Steam was Pocono, Hudsons, Pacifics. Yes, the LACKAWANNA LIMITED and THE PHOEBE SNOW were numbered 3 westbound and 6 eastbound although #1 may have been used earlier than the 40s. Best check Taber's books and King's ROUTE OF THE PHOEBE SNOW for better details than my memory.

As equipment was delivered to the DL&W it was put into service. Thus the "Phoebe Snow" cars could be seen in the consist of the "Lackawanna Limited". I don't have the exact date in front of me but essentially one day numbers 3 and 6 were the Lackawanna Limited and the next day they were the Phoebe Snow. I suspect this was also a timetable change date as well.

By the way, would you consider the Phoebe Snow to be a streamliner? I recently had a conversation with several old timers who insisted that it was not.

Light weight cars, smooth sided, stainless, multi colorecd,
(semi)dedicated trainset, diesel hauled, "modern" (for the time) marketing techniques, mid 20th century: steamliner. Six wheel trucks and mixing heavyweight baggage and mail cars: presents the arguementarguement. For all intents and purposes, it was a streamliner.

I just happened to be watching the Mark 1 Video on the Phoebe Snow. The pre-inaugural run for the press took place on November 9, 1949 and the first scheduled run for the public took place on November 15, 1949. Departure time was 10:30AM from Hoboken.

By the 1960 merger didn't they create the Erie-Lackawanna limited which ran on the old Erie main through the southern tier, because the Phoebe Snow ran on the Lackwanna main?

The EL Limited was run when they pulled the Tavern Lounges off numbers 3 and 6. Bill White reinstated the cars and the name when he took over and the name and cars remained until the end of 3&6. Numbers 21 and 22 did the Delaware Div. to feed 3&6 at Binghamton but were unnamed in EL times.

Henry 6: I thought the low# F's on 3 & 6 were F-3's.

They are F3's! I don't know my fn diesels anymore!

This wreck in Wayland, NY caused the most fatalities of any in the history of the DL&W.

http://www.paintedhills.org/STEUBEN/Way ... Wreck.html

s4ny wrote:This wreck in Wayland, NY caused the most fatalities of any in the history of the DL&W.

The Corning wreck on July 4, 1911 was a considerably more costly wreck in terms of loss of life. 36 people died as a result of that wreck. It is a fascinating albeit tragic story and it along with a wreck on the Pennsylvania I believe it was, the same year were two accidents which raised the level of public out cry for railroads to accelerate the replacement of wood bodied cars with steel cars to a new level.

One of these days I am going to write an article on the Corning wreck and the coroner’s inquest which followed. It was quite the saga.

Will Shultz

s4ny -

From that link article....

" The track-side signals and cab signals indicated clear. "

I had no idea that steam engines had 'cab signals' in 1943 !

The cab signals were installed in the mainline (or ones which traversed the mainline) locomotives which ran west of Scranton in the 1920's. Yes Virginia, those folks 80 years ago weren't quite so backwards as we sometimes believe they were.

The Lackawanna like the Pennsylvania installed cab signals in leu of automatic train stop mandated by the ICC(?) and finally received a waiver allowing the cab signals to satisfy the ICC mandate. Other railroads like the CNJ, New York Central (which was instrumental in the early research of ATS) and others went with true ATS systems. Although, I believe many CNJ locomotives also had cab signals.

This is a grossly abreviated version of the history involved. Maybe another article one of these days.

Will Shultz

The American rail industry was at an all-time high from 1900 to 1910. Particularly, 1905 and 1910 were years with extreme traffic volume and congestion. A box car of freight unexpedited (non-refer) would take two to three weeks to get from Chicago to New York. The Pennsy was considering four tracking their entire main line. Railroads were looking for any productivity gains possible. Cab signals was considered as a way to squeeze more trains on a line rather than rely purely on the fixed spaced block signals and towers. This obviously led to an all-time frantic push for any engine, any schedule slot, etc. Wrecks grew. The public and newspapers were in outcry over them.

Interesting theory, except the ATS and cab signaling involved was not developed and installed until the 1920’s. The cab signals simply echoed the display of the line side signals, the intent was to have a visible display even in inclement weather conditions such as the dense fog which was a contributing factor in the DL&W East Corning wreck.

The cab signals on the Lackawanna also involved a signal whistle which the engineman had to acknowledge within a fixed time period or else the train would go into emergency. The point was to make certain the engineman acknowledged the signal indication.

With Automatic Train Stop, the engine or tender had an inductive pickup or mechanical trip which would either cause an induced current or trip a “switch” when the line side signal displayed a stop indication. This would cause a signal whistle in the cab to sound and again, the trainman had just so long to apply the brakes. Many of these systems had a manual override which the engineman could hold to prevent an emergency application. Something many people thought defeated the whole purpose of ATS. If the engineer didn’t acknowledge the stop signal and apply the train brakes and an automatic emergency application did occur, once the train stopped it usually required the engineer or fireman to reset a device (relay or mechanical trip located on the tender or engine pilot deck) before the train line brake pressure could be pumped up and the brakes released. Obviously this took time and would cause a delay which would have to be explained.

This again is a greatly simplified explanation.

Will Shultz