Southern Tier CNYK lease questions

I was discussing the tier with a buddy last night, and have some questions
1. When did the CNY RR lease begin?
2. How long is the lease good for?
3. As per the lease, the CNY is responsible for upgrading speeds correct?
4. For 4 weekly trains, does this lease make any sense?
thanks

1. End of 2004 or 2005 I think
2. Until someone terminates it.
3. Yes
4. Not at all

1. yes, 1/1/05.
2. 20 years with an option for a 10 year extension.
3. per the original lease, yes. But I am sure this has been renegotiated. The signal system has not been removed and was completely upgraded between 05 and 08, at the expense that track work to increase the speeds was put off.
4. NYSW had no choice but to lease the tier. Norfolk southern was not running any freight on the line and did not want to maintain the line so that NYSW could run it's freight. NS basically said that they would let the line be dropped to resticted speed as the track conditions deteriorated. So for NS, yes the lease makes sense. For NYSW, it was a forced upon way of keeping their route open.
5. And like I said before, we have only seen the lease that was filed with the STB in December of 2004. I'm sure there have been major changes to that lease that we are not aware of.

1. yes, 1/1/05.
2. 20 years with an option for a 10 year extension.
3. per the original lease, yes. But I am sure this has been renegotiated. The signal system has not been removed and was completely upgraded between 05 and 08, at the expense that track work to increase the speeds was put off.
4. NYSW had no choice but to lease the tier. Norfolk southern was not running any freight on the line and did not want to maintain the line so that NYSW could run it's freight. NS basically said that they would let the line be dropped to resticted speed as the track conditions deteriorated. So for NS, yes the lease makes sense. For NYSW, it was a forced upon way of keeping their route open.
5. And like I said before, we have only seen the lease that was filed with the STB in December of 2004. I'm sure there have been major changes to that lease that we are not aware of.

With this action do we have another short line RR running around NY State or one that is controlled by a conglomerate called Norfolk Southern or as some say (nazi system)?

L&HR C&S wrote:
4. NYSW had no choice but to lease the tier. Norfolk southern was not running any freight on the line and did not want to maintain the line so that NYSW could run it's freight. NS basically said that they would let the line be dropped to resticted speed as the track conditions deteriorated. So for NS, yes the lease makes sense. For NYSW, it was a forced upon way of keeping their route open.

But isn't NYSW controlled by NS and CSX? It's not like NYSW is a separate entity that needs to survive....I'm assuming that it was signed over to the NYSW to placate the state reps who want to keep train service in the area, somewhat akin to the ELOI/OIEL trains that Conrail ran over the west end of the ex-EL.

Now I understand. Thank you.






A person is never too old to learn, the need for education never stops. It stops for those who do not have the mental, physical,capability and desire to be educated.

It was done for tax breaks and state help on maintenance... NS didn't want to pay taxes on the line and NYSW/CNY would have a much easier time getting state funds. It made sense for NS to do the deal. Its possible that since NS is the big boss here, they forced the NYSW into a deal that would mostly benefit NS.

What is the current max speed of the Southern Tier? What could the max speed be with the track improvements? What do the improvements entail? Any chance of CNYK/NYSW getting the funding for the track improvements as part of Fed stimulus package as a way to relieve traffic on River Line?

Thanks.

I think parts of the line are 25... maybe others up to 40. I dont think the line could ever be used to relieve the River Line because it is owned by NS and CSX owns the River Line. As far as I know, NYSW can't run any other railroad's traffic over the line.

Dug back in the archives - here is the link to the STB filing for the actual agreement:

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ ... enDocument

SecaucusJunction wrote:I think parts of the line are 25... maybe others up to 40. I dont think the line could ever be used to relieve the River Line because it is owned by NS and CSX owns the River Line. As far as I know, NYSW can't run any other railroad's traffic over the line.

CSX has used the east end of the Southern Tier Mainline for detours. I've seen pictures posted in a few magazines. The following websites confirm the detours, too:

1. http://www.search.com/reference/New_Yor ... rn_Railway
2. http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 519&nseq=1
3. http://nwrailroadvideos.com/rrvid20.html

More like 6-8 trains a week.

Matt Langworthy wrote:

SecaucusJunction wrote:I think parts of the line are 25... maybe others up to 40. I dont think the line could ever be used to relieve the River Line because it is owned by NS and CSX owns the River Line. As far as I know, NYSW can't run any other railroad's traffic over the line.

CSX has used the east end of the Southern Tier Mainline for detours. I've seen pictures posted in a few magazines. The following websites confirm the detours, too:

1. http://www.search.com/reference/New_Yor ... rn_Railway
2. http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 519&nseq=1
3. http://nwrailroadvideos.com/rrvid20.html

Yes, but I don;t think CSX has used the Tier for Detours since late 2006, early 07... Infact I know there have been wrecks on the Riverline, so I don't think NYSW is in any position to handle CSX detours anymore.

And no, there are not 6-8 trains on the Tier East of Binghamton!!

Since it generally takes the NYSW an extra 24+ hours to get a train between Syracuse and NJ, its probably just easier for CSX to wait for the line to clear and run the trains their own way. NS can handle priority trains on their line as well through Pittsburgh in a pinch. Also, because of past operations problems, I really don't think that CSX and NYSW are on the best terms. Thats why CSX originally pulled the run-thru's off the line earlier in the decade. There were stories of trains sitting on the Tier's sidings for 3+ days at a time.

Lets face it, the NYSW is basically a dead railroad being held on life support by the parent companies... There is no good reason why they even exist as NS and CSX could run their entire week's traffic on the River and Lehigh Lines without anyone looking twice. They sold their souls during the Conrail buyout and are living like trust fund babies to the bigger railroads but the funds could be cut off at any time... and probably will be. They have no connection anymore to connect with any other railroads and can only handle local traffic over the Tier. I think the only reason they are still in business as of now is the fact that they are doing NS a favor by maintaining the Tier and serving the handful of customers online that NS didn't find profitable. I would not be surprised in the next few years if we see the continued absorption of NYSW into the CSX/NS conglomerate.

If you ever have a chance of seeing more trains on the Tier, it definitely won't be from the NYSW.