Turboliners

The longest, highest capacity, double-deck Shinkansen trains in Japan seat over 1600, although there's only a few of these that run each day. However, the 16 car Nozomi trains that make up the bulk of the traffic on the Tokaido and Sanyo lines (which are the busiest) "only" seat 1323.

Sorry to get off topic!

Wow, that's amazing! I guess the Shinkansen is more akin to a commuter service than a premiere inter-city service. But still, it makes the Acela's 304 passenger capacity look quite low. A typical TGV seats closer to 400, and the TGV duplex seats over 500.

The Turboliners would probably be adequate most of the time with the additional coach added, boosting capacity to 340. And if Amtrak were to get at least 4 sets into operation, maybe they could add another daily round trip or two. Adding frequency seems like it might be an easier alternative to adding more capacity, although I don't know how much congestion there is due to Metro North traffic south of Poughkeepsie.

hsr_fan wrote:Wow, that's amazing! I guess the Shinkansen is more akin to a commuter service than a premiere inter-city service. But still, it makes the Acela's 304 passenger capacity look quite low. A typical TGV seats closer to 400, and the TGV duplex seats over 500.

Shinkansen <b>is</b> the premiere intercity service in Japan - running up to 186mph (300kph). And in 2003 the Tokaido line achieved an average OTP of just 6 seconds late. Also, there have been <b>0</b> passenger fatailities on shinkansen services over their lifetime (excluding intentional fatailities like jumping off the train), where crash worthyness is not considered a priority, instead putting their emphasis on crash avoidance.

The Sanyo Shinkansen, when operational in 2007, is to have trains running at 350 km/h, like what is planned for the Madrid-Barcelona AVE in Spain. (Shinkansen = "New Trunk Line".)

Irish Chieftain wrote:The Sanyo Shinkansen, when operational in 2007, is to have trains running at 350 km/h, like what is planned for the Madrid-Barcelona AVE in Spain. (Shinkansen = "New Trunk Line".)

Meanwhile, we wait for Amtrak and New York to get their act together and hopefully reintroduce 30 year old Turboliners, with the possibility of someday running them at 125 mph! Man, is this country bass-ackward when it comes to transportation!

hsr_fan wrote:

RailBus63 wrote:One could make the same argument about the flexibility of the Acela trainsets.

Indeed. How they selected a capacity of 304 passengers for the Acela, I don't know, but I would think that if you're going to design a fixed consist set, you'd want a capacity more in the range of 400. I think most high speed trains in Europe and Japan seat at least 400.

The Acela trainsets are used for a premium service and are supplemented
by additional trains of conventional equipment. The turbo trains are/were
used for regular, not premium service, there is a difference.
In addition, the Acela trainsets are powered by electricity, the most
efficiently powered passenger trains in existance.
Thirty year old locomotives being rebuilt for further service, how often do
we see that today?, not often for sure. Some of the F-40's were arriving
about that time too and they are for the most part out to pasture at least
so far as Amtrak is concerned. In my opinion, the F-40 was a far
superior piece of motive power as compared to a turbo power unit.
Most high speed trains and most of the best ones throughout the world are
powered by electricity.
Noel Weaver

<i>Also, there have been 0 passenger fatailities on shinkansen services over their lifetime (excluding intentional fatailities like jumping off the train), where crash worthyness is not considered a priority, instead putting their emphasis on crash avoidance.</i>

No, there is <b>no</b> crashworthiness on the equipment at all. Even the TGV is considered by Japanese standards to be a very heavy and conservative design. The Japanese are very strict about their operations, and very strict about safety - their policy is thsat there will be <b>no</b> accidents. Even minor things, such as being a minute late, or even forgetting your hat, are quite serious rule infractions on the system. They run by far the strictest and tightest operation out there, period.

<I>Most high speed trains and most of the best ones throughout the world are powered by electricity. </i>

Actually, if you consider 'high speed' to be over 150mph, then they all are. Ever since the TGV development resulted in viable high speed pantographs, development of non-electric HSTs has been at a standstill in the industrialized world, save for a few 125mph diesel experiments that generally haven't gone that far.

Nasadowsk wrote:Ever since the TGV development resulted in viable high speed pantographs, development of non-electric HSTs has been at a standstill in the industrialized world, save for a few 125mph diesel experiments that generally haven't gone that far.

The British HST (Class 43) was developed around the same time as the TGV Paris - Sud-Est

I like turboliners. My mom took me on one once, and the conductor saw my train cap and invited me up to see the engineer. Yeah, before all the rules and regulations involved. I still remember that day, and have loved Turboliners ever since. How tough is it to find where they are stored to get pictures? I live in albany. Is it possible from a public street?

scoobster28 wrote:I like turboliners. My mom took me on one once, and the conductor saw my train cap and invited me up to see the engineer. Yeah, before all the rules and regulations involved. I still remember that day, and have loved Turboliners ever since. How tough is it to find where they are stored to get pictures? I live in albany. Is it possible from a public street?

If these trains are stored where I think they are, they are in the Amtrak
facility at Bear, Delaware. This facility is on the NS and not on the NEC
and the trains are probably stored among other equipment and likely the
area is fenced in too.
I doubt that any decent pictures could be had from public property and I
do not think you would be welcomed there, especially being from Albany
with the present situation with these trains.
I seem to remember a poster stating that the shop at Rensselaer was
built for the turbo trains. That might be but it was built to maintain
equipment used in the area and nearby and that is just what it is doing.
With all of New York State's potshots at Amtrak, they provide quite a few
decent jobs in the Albany/Rensselaer area with the shop facility, a major
crew base for both engine and train crews and all of the related facilities.
New York should not take Amtrak too lightly, noting says that Amtrak
could not move the jobs out of that shop in Rensselaer and put them
somewhere else in the northeast. I don't think it is likely but it sure is
possible.
Giving the present political situation in New York State, I am not sure that
fruitful talks between New York and Amtrak are likely right now.
Noel Weaver

Assuming that Amtrak wins and never runs the Turboliners again, does anyone care to speculate on the future of these trains? Will New York run them under Metro North? Despite their flaws, the trains are newly rebuilt and have hardly any miles on them (the third set hasn't even turned a wheel in revenue service). They're far too valuable to scrap, IMO, and that would be a true fleecing of the taxpayers.

Could be other places, but I KNOW I saw at least one train set in Albany a couple months ago. I just didn't have my camera with me then, and cannot remember exactly where it was. Thanks for the information though.

Two independent scenarios drive the Turboliners future:

1. Future of Amtrak and its operation of Empire Corridor. If Amtrak fails or elects to withdraw from running the Empire Corridor, NYSDOT is the likely successor, and will probably delegate responsibility for the trains' operation to Metro-North. Should this occur, the turbos will be put back into service in a New York minute.

2. Outcome of litigation between Amtrak and NYSDOT. Until all the facts are known and the relevant principles of law are applied I don't care to hazard a guess on how the courts will decide; I'm not a lawyer.

Should courts determine that title to the trains belongs to Amtrak, they probably will be sold into service in a foreign country. I could picture them on the Bahgdad-Basra Express.

I don't see how Amtrak could "fail" to run the Empire Corridor. NY doesn't currently contract with Amtrak to run the corridor, which is probably the #1 reason why Metro-North doesn't run it now (that is, NY gets the service for "free").

LI Loco wrote:Should courts determine that title to the trains belongs to Amtrak, they probably will be sold into service in a foreign country. I could picture them on the Bahgdad-Basra Express.

Yeah, I was going to suggest selling them to France to replace SNCF's original Turboliners!