• LV Rochester (Hemlock) Branch - Atwells?

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

  by nydepot
 
Where was Atwells on The LV Rochester Branch? It's listed in a 1945 ETT I have as a place for trains to stop before crossing (St. Mary's Street, Atwells) but Atwells is not listed as a station in the front (no milepost).

Thanks.

Charles

  by dj_paige
 
Atwells is on the LV Hemlock Branch, not on the LV Rochester Branch. I'm going to guess it is where the LV crosses Jenks Road between Lima and Livonia. The other possibilities don't seem to fit well given this map. But, that is a guess.

  by nydepot
 
According to this LV employee's timetable, the branch from Rochester to Hemlock was all considered the Rochester Branch (TT #17, page 13). There was no Hemlock Branch back then at least. That said, the mileposts did start at 0.0 at Rochester Jct. and increase to Hemlock and increase to Rochester.

It also needs to be where St. Mary's Street crosses the railroad. I haven't found a St. Mary's Street yet.

Charles

  by dj_paige
 
If you look at maps from 1904 and today, the LV ROW crosses the same roads in 1904 as it does today between Livonia and Lima. There really aren't any new roads down there, so one would have to surmise that only the name of the road has changed. Since the LV stop named Woodruff must correspond to Woodruff Road, I also surmise that one road north of Woodruff, what is now Jenks Road, is a good candidate to be Atwell.

I did not know that the Rochester Branch included all the trackage down to Hemlock. I thought I had read books that referred to a "Hemlock Branch".

  by VTM
 
I came across this issue years ago after acquiring various LV employee timetables. I queried my mother who was a resident of Lima from 1929 to 1949 and she seemed to think that at one time "St. Marys Street" was the name of the road which is known to us today variably as Route 15A or Plank Road (according to the state and TN Lima), or Lake Avenue (15A within the Village of Lima). I believe I have seen reference to St. Mary's Street. somewhere since in some old deeds and property records. However a property map dated 1949 for my grandfathers property clearly indicates the name "Lake Avenue" applied at that time at least within the Village.

TT#3 Dated September 23, 1941 simply lists St. Mary's Street, Atwells along with the multitude of other crossings on the entire LV system requiring a member of crew to simply station himself in the center of the crossing and protect pedestrians and vehicles before indicating train movement to proceed.

Protection at this crossing was elevated in 1951 as a paste in General Order No. 1803 for Zone E dated May 22, 1951, (LV Timetable Number 18 dated April 29, 1951) states effective at once:

GO 1803 (d)

"Rochester Branch Atwells (located 1.7 miles east of Lima)"

"Trains and Engines must stop before passing over St. Mary's Street, located 211 feet west of Atwells' and a trainman must position himself in center of crossing with red flag or red light and stop all highway travel before giving signal to engineman to proceed. Lighted fusees shall be placed in receptacles provided for that purpose, on pole, on each side of track. After crossing is cleared, the fusees must be extinguished."

The fact that crews were instructed to go to such effort to protect this crossing clearly signifies to me that this is the correct location (todays 15A) In addition a review of the topograhy at this location would reveal serious sight distance concerns for southbound highway traffic on both sides of the highway. and a serious sight distance condition for northbound traffic on the east side of the road (TT "west"). Further, the highway crests a hill immediately north of the crossing (explaining fusee poles). Finally this is the only highway in proximity to being 1.7 miles east of Lima

What can be confusing is the fact that the track at this location is geographical west to east, but the timetable direction of the railroad is opposite. Therefore a train operating to Hemlock at this location was operating in an eastward TT direction, but traveling due west geographically.

This timetable instruction became a part of subsequent reissues and appears as such even in a 1968 version continuing to refer to it as "St. Mary's Street" The fact the railroad calls it one thing and the local populace calls it yet another is not that unusual. It could have been the place name at the time of construction (ca. 1894) and simply carried through over the years by the railroad engineering department As to Atwell, an 1868 record indicates two Atwell men listed as farmers in a Lima directory.

CA 1962, I remember walking this line with my parents and there was an active farmroad paralling the track timetable direction eastward from the Highway. The right of way fence to fence seems to be wider as well and it could have even easily supported a short siding without difficulty in the area that the timetable identified as Atwells. There was nothing else there in 1962..nor when I drove almost the entire line in a 1964 Dodge after rails were removed. Today this location is highly overgrown with farm access confined to the adjacent field

It was normal practice for the LV to stop and protect this crossing right up until the end. The crossing by 1968 was simply protected with two metal crossbucks equipped with "cat eye" glass beads outlining the words "Railroad Crossing". One of these I acquired at time of abandonment and is now in the possession of the Rochester NRHS. I do not however recall seeing the fusee poles mentioned, nor do I recall any receptacles on the crossbuck masts which were tubular metal. These could have been separate devices..long forgotten, damaged, or removed when the more modern crossbucks were installed.

The other stop and protect crossing on the Hemlock side of the Rochester Branch was at West Main Street in Honeoye Falls and the main track (flasher equipped) crossing at East Main in Lima (Rt 5 & 20) was a stop, activate manually with a switch and proceed with the rear end turning off the lights manually after clearing. The runaround track was not so equipped and was a pure stop and protect. The apparatus at East Main Street was also placed into service under the same GO as identified above.

Timtables up to the end refer to this officially as the Rochester Branch in its' entirety with locations in the timetable measured from 0.0 at Rochester Junction upward in number in both directions to both Hemlock and Rochester. However the line was not marked this way in the field as lines in each direction maintained escalating milepost numbers from the mainline base point. Sibley Road was vicinity of 381 and the Hemlock wye was just beyond 394. There were even 4 (each) 382 mileposts: one on the mainline, and one each to Rochester, Hemlock and the last one on the short spur down to the Honeoye Falls depot. These MPs are also shown as such in valuation maps and track charts I have seen.

As a sidebar the last LV freight train operating on this line was involved in a grade crossing accident on RT 20A at Livonia Center. I believe this was late summer 1968.

There was (is) a substantial wooden curved trestle with ballasted deck about a mile South (TT East) of Lima, about halfway between Lima and the Route 15A crossing at "Atwells". It is highly inaccessible today.

Hope this is of help.
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=42. ... ayer=DRG25

  by dj_paige
 
VTM -- thanks for this wealth of very interesting information, and for your detailed detective work.

Sure would be interesting to see that trestle!

  by Farmer Joe
 
According to some locals in Lima, the wooden trestle is still there, but vine covered. Now would be the time to visit it. But.....I'm told its private property now and I don't know if permission would be granted. I'd love to see it myself.

Joe

  by nydepot
 
Thanks for the help!

Charles

  by scottychaos
 
wow, great info, thanks VTM!
where exactly on that map is the curved trestle?
is it near the top of the map, what appears to be a fill next to the "WT"?
or is it across the stream on the curve in the bottom center of the map?
either way, I cant get it to show up on the NYS interactive mapping site:
unless im not looking in the right place..
and, there does appear to be heavy tree cover along most of the ROW in that stretch..the trestle just might not be visable from the air.

http://www1.nysgis.state.ny.us/MainMap.cfm

thanks!
scot

  by nydepot
 
"or is it across the stream on the curve in the bottom center of the map? "

This is the right place.

Charles

  by dj_paige
 
I hopped in the car this morning, enjoyed a lovely “convenience store breakfast”, and drove down to Lima to look around.

At the LV crossing on Rt 15A (“Atwells”?), the ROW to the west is obliterated — I couldn't see anything that looks like a ROW there. However, to the east, towards the trestle, the ROW was clearly visible and looked hikeable as far as I could see. However, there was a “No trespassing sign” and so I didn't trespass.

Further to the east, on Clay St, you can see a line of trees where I think the LV ROW was, but no visible sign of the trestle from about 1/3 of a mile away. There was a dirt road leading from Clay St over to where the LV ROW was, probably near the trestle. However, there was another “No trespassing sign” and so I didn't trespass.

Is it possible to find out who owns the property? How would you go about this? I would be happy to contact them about getting permission to walk on the property.

Afterwards, I drove over to Avon and snapped some interesting pictures. One picture is of the old BR&P bridge over the Genesee River at Ashantee, the so-called Five Arch Bridge. The other pics (this one and this one) are of the old Erie RR Bridge over the Genesee River.

  by scottychaos
 
Paige,
nice shots!
just for the record, the "5 arch bridge" in Avon isnt BR&P..
its the Erie commuter line between Rochester & Mount Morris.
the BR&P never ran on the East side of the Genesee..

and its not crossing the Genesee. :wink:
its crossing Conesus creek..
the Genesee is a few miles to the west.

Scot

  by dj_paige
 
Ah, well the lesson is that I should write down what it says on the historic marker rather than trying to remember it when I get home. Thanks for the corrections!

  by joshuahouse
 
I take it the name of the owner wasn't on their no trespassing sign?

  by dj_paige
 
There was no name of the property owner on the "No Trespassing Sign".