Metrolink Crash in Chatsworth, CA - 9/12/08

FCP503 wrote:I have felt from the beginning that "human factors' would likely be a major part of this investigation. Whether those factors are psychological or physiological, they can all contribute at some level to the overall result.

This is a standard part of this kind of investigation.

FCP503 wrote:As to the issue of the train brake handle. I would like to posit that another possibility is that the engineer may have has his hand in the train brake lever, and that the impact may have caused his hand to push the lever forward. This would result in the lever being applied but the event recorder not showing a braking application prior to impact.

You suggest an excellent question there FCP503 - that being, Does the standard railroad event recorder function after a crash (assuming electronic integrity maintained) ? Battery back-up ?

With respect to stress caused by a split run, speaking from experience I found it better than working a straight 6 hour run. That's my opinion on the matter. Running a train is stressful no matter what.

The NTSB is saying the commuter train was not in emergency at the time of the crash. The impact obviously separated the train and doubtless broke the front angle cock so suring the impact itself the train would then have gone into emergency. I believe it would be impossible to determine whether the guy was thrown against the lever (pretty likely) or some other scenario.

Here's a prediction and you saw it here first.

In the future the NTSB or other regulatory bodies will require passengers and crew to wear seatbelts. I know that's silly but look at what regulators do.

Mitch wrote:Here's a prediction and you saw it here first.

In the future the NTSB or other regulatory bodies will require passengers and crew to wear seatbelts. I know that's silly but look at what regulators do.

No speculation please. Stick with the facts. Let the NTSB do their work!

Seriously though, part of the appeal of the train is being able to get out of your seat and walk around, especially on Amtrak. Certainly seat belts may be offered but I don't think they would be required to be worn.

Spokker wrote:

Mitch wrote:Here's a prediction and you saw it here first.

In the future the NTSB or other regulatory bodies will require passengers and crew to wear seatbelts. I know that's silly but look at what regulators do.

No speculation please. Stick with the facts. Let the NTSB do their work!

Seriously though, part of the appeal of the train is being able to get out of your seat and walk around, especially on Amtrak. Certainly seat belts may be offered but I don't think they would be required to be worn.

You don't think some yosh will enact this on the strength of my post now do you? Or do you?

"What you see here,
What you say here.
What you do here,

Let it stay here"

I remember seening that little poem on a sign posted in Amtrak's HUDSON Tower in Kearny, N. J, and I'm certain I'd encountered it a few times previously.

I was lucky enough to work for a railroad on two occasions, but not for very long. In one of the two instances, my Dad had the misfortune to be stricken with an undisclosed ilmess, finally diagnosed as incurable multiple myeloma (bone cancer) almost simultaneously with my training and probation. I chose not to share this information with my instructors and supervisors. in part because:

NORAC Rule S: "in case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken."

Operating railroaders live in a very closed society. Their entre life is expected to be structured around the job, and any need for special considerations is likely to be viewed as "making waves". For many of them, the end of a railroad job means a drastic cut in income. With a couple of exceptions like alcohol abuse, they are not expected to seek help in dealing with personal issues, and management is reluctant to broaden the scope for fear of opening a "Pandora's box".

We're only beginning to learn of some of the pressures that engineer may have been facing, and the need for privacy should forbid any discussion as to how he might have been coping with them until the facts are known. If anything positive comes out of this tragedy, it might come from a breach of the "wall of silence" which also exists in other high-profile, but blue-collar occupations, such as police work.

This case has also arisen at a time when the high cost of shifting our society away from an unsustainable automotive-orientation is just coming to light, and I don't see how an intensification of the media's scrutiny of transportation issues can be avoided, nor should it be.

Mitch wrote:

Spokker wrote: You don't think some yosh will enact this on the strength of my post now do you? Or do you?

I wasn't serious about the "No speculation" line. It was to make fun of those who refuse to speculate on anything and therefore feel superior to the rest of us who use a discussion forum for what it's for - discussion.

Mitch wrote:Running a train is stressful no matter what.

No offense, but in my experience, running a passenger train is like a walk in park compared to a 19,000 ton DP coal train on mountain grade. Stressful? Gee, sorry, but I don't see that. Passenger runs were more like taking a day off, in terms of stress for me anyway. You pull the throttle and you go, put on the brakes and you stop. This guy probably had more stress driving on the freeway to/from work in LA.

snakebite wrote:
No offense, but in my experience, running a passenger train is like a walk in park compared to a 19,000 ton DP coal train on mountain grade. Stressful? Gee, sorry, but I don't see that. Passenger runs were more like taking a day off, in terms of stress for me anyway. You pull the throttle and you go, put on the brakes and you stop. This guy probably had more stress driving on the freeway to/from work in LA.

Really? Are you sure?

On Sept. 2, Sanchez also was reportedly involved in a fatal train crash with a pedestrian. Higgins said the NTSB was looking into the incident.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... eheadlines

OK OK well that part would be stressful. But in general, running a passenger train is not chuck full of that kind of stress. I mean, some engineers go their entire careers without those things happening to them. It's not like being a policeman, or an EMT, or a crab boat deckhand!

I mean, some engineers go their entire careers without those things happening to them. It's not like being a policeman, or an EMT, or a crab boat deckhand!

Uhhhhh. I think that underappreciates the situation that many railroaders live with. Fatalities happen. Between people that think they can beat the train to the crossing in order to save two minutes, or those that see death by train as their preferred mode of suicide, the likelyhood of having to face a fatality is rather high....at least in Southern California. The same day as the Chatsworth accident a car went around the grade crossing protection in Corona and the driver of the car was killed. There is also the case of the pedestrian that was struck and killed.

The reality of being a railroader is that if this kind of thing happens you will almost certainly be helpless to prevent it. Trains don't stop instantly, especially when you really want them to.

The LA Times reports that California has banned the use of cell phones by engineers, conductors, and brakemen while on duty. Don't the railroads already ban them while on duty or is this expanding the scope? And does this also make it a criminal act that can be prosecuted by the state?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 3054.story

Actually, fwiw passenger service can absolutely be stressful. Working with people, not inanimate cargo, is a pain in the a** sometimes. And commuter rail services often are short on equipment and long on delays and frustrated customers. Add to that the frequent instances of passengers crossing in front of trains pulling out of station stops, suicide by train, etc. and yes, it is stressful. At least in my city, these guys are working with crap equipment and every week there's an equipment shortage that drives the trainmaster crazy. It's no picnic, the issues are just diff from freight.

Btw, none of us are against speculation or discussion per se. What we don't like is black and white statements of blame passed off as fact. Leave those types of judgments to the ntsb is all I was saying. Discussion, sure-- I'm on here, aren't I??

And to the person who commented that many engineers prolly go their whole career without a fatality, I doubt that. I've been a buff for only one year and I know maybe 3 or 4 engineers to talk to. Of those 3 or 4, 2 were involved in fatalities during the past year. And that's just the ones I know. It's a fact of life in that industry.