The Maine Central Railroad Mountain Division

I just got back from a trip to North Conway via Rt 113 along the Mountain Division. A few observations...
The line never goes through Bridgton. It stops at Bridgton Jct. where it met with the narrow gauge. Besides Poland Spring I noticed at least one major lumber yard right next to the tracks (in East Baldwin) and more than two decent sized gravel pits between Hiram and Fryeburg. Also at least 3 signs along the way supporting reactivating the Mountain Division. If Ossipee Sand and Garvel is enough reason for NH Northcoast to run gravel trains than why not here as well. Taking all these into consideration I think there should be at least enough need for freight service.
The condition looks good all the way to the NH border where NHDOT and the CSRR lease takes over. The line between Fryeburg and Redstone (about 5 miles) is pretty overgrown and has not been maintained by CSRR (I helped the CSRR track crew gather up old rail anchors and plates from that part of the line so I know its not a priority). So that said i don't see CSRR doing shuttle service for the Fryeburg fair anytime soon.

The value of the line would increase dramatically if the whole line from Portland to St. Johnsbury was rehabilitated. Then it could be a 'Bridge to Somewhere" and connect with the WACR & NHCR. Any potential freight customers on the NH side ??

Track5 wrote:The value of the line would increase dramatically if the whole line from Portland to St. Johnsbury was rehabilitated. Then it could be a 'Bridge to Somewhere" and connect with the WACR & NHCR. Any potential freight customers on the NH side ??

Well that's all and good but chances are Pan Am won't touch it and the line goes right into Rigby Yard; as long as Pan Am is around no bridging will be necessary. Pan Am moved operations to the south to the current route we see today shortly after they took over the B&M.
As much as I would like to see it, I don’t think the Mt. Division will ever be what it once was. Yeah you might get a local fright from Portland to Fryeburg but that’s about it. There’s nothing in NH with the exception of Whitefield which is being serviced by New Hampshire Central.

There’s nothing in NH with the exception of Whitefield which is being serviced by New Hampshire Central.

[/quote]

There's nothing in NH except Cannon Mtn, Franconia Notch, Bretton Woods, Mt Washington, The Mt Washington Hotel, Crawford Notch the Appalachian Trail, Mt Cranmore and North Conway outlet shopping Which is why I think that portion of the line could be restored as a tourist connection to Montreal. With that connection restored I don't see why an upgrade to Portland-Montreal intercity service would be that difficult if the political will were there.

I could definitely see some kind of tourist train on top of what the Conway Scenic already operates but that's years and years down the road... if ever! As far as freight goes, it all stops in Fryeburg; there's nothing in New Hampshire expect the small area of Whitefield and for the Vermont end if there is any potential for service it can be serviced out of St. Johnsbury. I hate saying it but there will never be bridge traffic again on the mountain division there will never be any kind of extensive passenger service for the foreseeable future. You might get some kind of passenger service 30 +/- years from now but right now there's no big push for it.

Here is an analysis that shows my concerns regarding having easily available rail travel to North Conway and beyond.

04101 Portland
04032 Freeport
03860 North Conway

Average Individual Expenditures $250-$1000

$12.50-$50 in individual ME sales taxes

1Hr 47 Minutes PORT-NCON 3Hr 34 Minutes (roundtrip)
63.52 Miles (one-way) 127.04 (roundtrip)
17.5 mpg
3.63 gallons (one-way) 7.26 gallons (roundtrip)
$3.75 per gallon
$13.61 (one-way) $27.23 (roundtrip)

Total comparative individual travel expenditures (North Conway gas+sales tax)
$27.23+$0=$27.23

Comparative Rail Travel Analysis
Portland ME-Dover NH (61.59 miles one-way)
Approximate Fare $13 (one-way) $26 (roundtrip)

21 Minutes PORT-FRPT 42 Minutes (roundtrip)
16.18 Miles (one-way) 32.36 (roundtrip)
17.5 mpg
0.92 gallons (one-way) 1.84 (roundtrip)
$3.75 per gallon
$3.45 (one-way) $6.90 (roundtrip)

Total comparative individual travel expenditures (Freeport gas+sales tax)
$6.90+$12.50-$50=$19.40-$56.90

Comparative Rail Travel Analysis
Portland ME-Saco ME (16.63 miles one-way)
Approximate Fare $9 (one-way) $18 (roundtrip)

Synthetic Analysis (roundtrip travel cost+sales tax)
Freeport Auto-$19.40-$56.90 Rail- $30.50-$68
North Conway Auto-$27.23 Rail-$26

In essence the more money you are planning on spending the more likely it is you might consider going to North Conway especially if there is a cheap and convenient rail service available to North Conway. This does NOT take into account the possibility of mid-week 50% discounts on travel etc. that services similar to the Downeaster occasionally offer. I certainly don't know of any gas station that ever has "gas-sales".

The sales tax advantage in North Conway really is much more substantial than people realize sometimes. As far as the inidividual expnditures go, this is based on experience in my own family which is solidly "middle-class". When people go to North Conway or Freeport for shopping they are not there just to, "buy a pair of shoes." They will often make a series of annual or semi-annual expenditures on clothing and consumer goods that they otherwise would not make at their local retail centers at home.

From the above analysis you can see that for the approximate price of a Roundtrip rail ticket people can get to North Conway for only a few dollars more than they would spend to get to Freeport and potentially have enough money left over to literally, "buy a pair of shoes", in addition to their planned expenditures.

Some people might say that because the price of travel by automobile is approximately equal to rail travel that nothing is being won or lost, however I believe that the travelling public is acutely aware of the difference in comfort between rail travel and automobile travel and as a result if they can travel by rail for about the same price that they can travel by car then they will choose rail if it is convenient and far more relaxing, a factor to which they attach a monetary value. I believe that people will travel much longer distances by rail for about the same money if they know they will be comfortable.

Obviously North Conway is a little difficult to get around without a vehicle but this scenario also assumes that there would some type of shopping outlet shuttle that would mitigate this problem.

Obviously this is all a long way off but still my theory still stands, subsidized rail travel to North Conway from Portland would be detrimental to Freeport. I know too many people in this part of Maine that already consider going to North Conway because of the tax advantage to take proposals for service to North Conway lightly. We can do much more for rail service revival in Maine by working on corridor serivce in Central Maine that will help feed the Downeaster service and keep our shopper dollars in state.

Until now, I would have considered reactivating the Mountain Division to be a rivet-counter's cannabis-induced reverie. However, four-dollar gasoline begins to add some credence to the possibility, and five dollar gasoline would have Maine looking seriously at the options. New Hampshire, of course, never recognizes the potential of anything other than asphalt.

Something else to consider, based on my conversations with store managers in both Freeport and North Conway: these are two quite different retail markets. Freeport is upscale, trendy, and style conscious, with lunch at the B&B; North Conway is discount, no sales tax, Bienvenue Canadiens, last year's overstocks, and grab a burger at Mickey D's. The North Conway shopper arrives by car, the Freeport shopper would probably consider the train.

PBM

GoKeefe - your analysis is certainly in the right direction... I would add a couple significant points: 1) your model already indicates that all things being equal, people should be flocking to NH as it's significantly cheaper for medium-big pruchases. Freeport's pretty vibrant, so I'm sure there are reasons other than transport issues in play (to PBM's point). Also, not many of us shop alone. We usually go with friends/family. In this example, the auto's cost would be considered "fixed," ie, the mileage is going to be virtually the same regardless of number of vehicle occupants. However, the train cost and sales taxes are variable. Add a person/purchase to the trip, and you've got to increase the cost accordingly The more people you squeeze in a car, the greater the economics favor personal automobiles. BTW, it also doesn't consider that most would need an auto to get to the train station - and those costs.

It would be interesting to know the demographics of the average Freeport shopper (probably changes from season to season)... how many are local, how many day trippers, how many on vaca, and from where, etc.

We can do much more for rail service revival in Maine by working on corridor serivce in Central Maine that will help feed the Downeaster service and keep our shopper dollars in state

Consider this: The Downeaster itself is already a "Maine wealth exporter," meaning more Mainers take the train to spend their dollars out of state, than the other way around. Which is logical, because Boston has the attractions and infrastructure to better serve as a rail-oriented destination. Just odd that the state is so eager to subsidize this behavior. Note their advertising: Promotional "Fan Fares" to see Boston sports, "Medical Travel" discounts to go see Boston Doctors, "Omni Parker Hotel" weekend in Boston... Yes, there's a Freeport package, too. But the the focus is on the Maine traveler, not the Boston weekender.

Mr. Cowford,
Nice to talk again...I agree that the Downeaster in some ways could be seen as a "wealth exporter". However I think in most ways it serves as a substitute for other modes of transportation, for travel that otherwise would occur anyways. Yes, it is possible that the Downeaster is facilitating travel that might otherwise not occur but I am not yet convinced that this is occuring in a volume that is so serious as to be problematic. Furthermore, there are some unique cultural attractions in Boston which cannot be found in Maine, most notably for Mainers, Fenway Park, the Boston Garden, the Boston Museum of Science, the USS Constitution and several dozen other major attractions and events.

There are some background assumptions that I might add to the model for consideration but one of these being that if large numbers of people are travelling to North Conway from Maine in one vehicle for shopping purposes perhaps that individual total of purchases might be so high as to make the North Conway tax advantage enough to justify the trip and its individual savings. As far the as the differences between Freeport and North Conway I think they are essentially the same. Many of Freeport's stores are some type of 'outlet' shopping just like North Conway, with the primary difference being, mall vs. village layout. Freeport is just as interested and friendly in Candian money and conveniently has a 'hidden' McDonald's that is built into one of the older village houses.

This is what really concerns me so much in terms of Freeport vs. North Conway and competing with subsidized rail travel over the Mountain Division from Portland, Freeport and North Conway are essentially the same shopping experience with the same prices competing in the same region for some of the same customers. If we make it easier and more comfortable for people to go to North Conway vs. Freeport, the sales tax advantage might be enough to really start to 'siphon' off shoppers from the Portland Region, either local or tourists.

Furthermore, the far more serious issue with this potential investment on the part of the Maine DOT is that is has the ability to destroy the political consensus that so far has enabled the creation of the Downeaster service. When looking at this issue people really need to look at the internal Maine politics in play here, it's fine to propose other issues or ideas, of course, but the initial reason for this topic in the first place was that Maine DOT was or is considering making an investment in the Mountain Division for the purpose of reactivation possibly as far as Fryeburg with passenger service being one of the integral reasons for the investment. I believe that the Maine DOT Mountain Division reactivation project as proposed is a threat to continued funding for the Downeaster rail service because it is wasteful. Errors like this one make will make it easier for rail opponents to argue that rail funding in general is wasteful and make it harder for people to justify appropriations for the Downeaster.

Further spending on rail service in southern Maine will not be received well in the State Lesgislature in Augusta especially when there are places where there is a greater need for the service and the money would be better spent. Lesgislator and their constituents up here strongly grasp the difference between funding useful and needed rail service from Portland to Boston that is then consequently helpful to the state and funding boondoggle projects like a Mountain Division reactivation that a) have the potential to harm our retail and tourist base in Mid-Coast and Central Maine and b) delay spending on far higher priority projects such as the Lewiston Lower Road and the Augusta Lower Road. I think anyone of the correspodents in this forum would be hard pressed to make the case that the Mountain Division reactivation project should be a higher priority project than funding either one of the aforementioned projects first.

One of the brighter ideas mentioned here was a reactivation from Montreal to North Conway. I think this would be smart spending on the part of NH and VT and would be competitive in attractiveness to what Maine might someday offer to Quebec either on the St. Lawrence and Atlantic or with the Maine, Montreal and Atlantic up north through a resored VIA Rail "Atlantic Limited" passenger service. An NH/VT reactivation would have the added benefit of bringing rail service back online in a part of the Mountain Division that is frequently more neglected and in a worse state of repair than the line is in Maine. Furthermore it would increase traffic across the Crawford Notch and increase the visibility of one of New England's great rail landmark rides.

Until projects such as the Lewiston Lower Road, the Lewiston Back road, the Augusta Lower Road and the proposed Lewiston-Montreal Rail Service and the Waterville-Bangor rail service are up and running the Mountain Division should remain a low priority for state rail transportation funding. Maintenance on the Mountain Division should be increased to make it possible to run in a 'turn-key' status as an Exempt or Class I rail service however further investment at this time beyond that cannot be justified until higher priorities in the state of Maine are addressed.

[Edited for grammar]

Augusta and company will see passenger service well before the Mt. Division ever sees a passenger train. I know the state is looking into passenger service on the Mt. Division but I don't see it going anywhere. The issue in hand should be freight service (which is also questionable), freight service is going to come first so comparing Freeport vs. North Conway at this stage in the game is pointless. If I'm not mistaken the study done on the Mt. Division 3 or so years ago said that passenger service was not warranted.

The study on the Mt. Division did say that commuter passenger service was pointless. It considered excursion service but not much else. Comparisons of Freeport vs. North Conway are not pointless because the long term vision for the state ultimately is putting this in play. The state is definitely considering excursion service to the Fryeburg fair, which would put them within miles of North Conway, If we use the Rockland Division model as an example it was service to the Rockland Lobster festival that ultimately brought back service on the Rockland Branch in the first place. I would strongly agree with using the Conway Scenic Railroad to bring serivce to the Fryeburg Fair from North Conway. I think this would really help with traffic and would occur using rails that have been, ironically, rehabilitated and paid for by the state of NH.

Although I agree that Augusta should see passenger service before the Mountain Division the Maine DOT is considering spending large sums of money on the Moutain Division at this time and has not announced such funding for needier and more important corridors towards the central and interior part of the state. I must strongly emphasize how bad it really is for Maine DOT to be spending money in the Southern part of the state with all of the surrounding publicity that is being generated for this without making some type of announcement or push for Central Maine. It's not just bad it's really terrible and in the long run it can and will ultimately hurt the Downeaster service, which is the foundation for sucessful rail passenger service in Maine.

A Class I or Class II freight operation simply is not worth the cost at present time when the money could be better spent elsewhere. The pool of funding available in our state for rail infrastructure investment is limited and it would be far better spent in Central Maine on projects that will have an immediate and helpful impact on traffic and travel issues. Why spend money on the Mountain Division now which is divisive and wasteful when we can use the same dollars in Central Maine to help ensure more rail service for the rest of the state in the future?

This is what really concerns me so much in terms of Freeport vs. North Conway and competing with subsidized rail travel over the Mountain Division from Portland, Freeport and North Conway are essentially the same shopping experience with the same prices competing in the same region for some of the same customers. If we make it easier and more comfortable for people to go to North Conway vs. Freeport, the sales tax advantage might be enough to really start to 'siphon' off shoppers from the Portland Region, either local or tourists.

Perhaps I can be of some assistance since your statement quoted above seems to imply that you have never in fact, been to North Conway and/or Freeport. North Conway has these things called mountains that people like to ski on in the winter and hike in the summer. Freeport is near the ocean. People come to coastal Maine, and that includes Freeport, for the ocean. People come to North Conway for the mountains. I have lived in both mid-coast Maine and the Mt. Washington Valley and I have yet to find a single person who came to North Conway for the ocean and to Freeport for the skiing. Tourists have been coming to these areas for over a century now because of their NATURAL attractions LONG before any debate over the difference between an "outlet village" or "outlet mall".

Obviously this is all a long way off but still my theory still stands, subsidized rail travel to North Conway from Portland would be detrimental to Freeport. I know too many people in this part of Maine that already consider going to North Conway because of the tax advantage to take proposals for service to North Conway lightly. We can do much more for rail service revival in Maine by working on corridor serivce in Central Maine that will help feed the Downeaster service and keep our shopper dollars in state.

One who has been to North Conway may notice that it sits right on the border of Maine. One who lives in Fryeburg, Bridgton, Hiram, Lovell, Harrison, Cornish, Stowe, Brownfield or any other middle-western Maine town may also notice that they depend on North Conway for their livelihood. A lot of those "out of state shopper dollars" end up going into a mainer's paycheck, not to mention their state income taxes. Of course, it would be nice to see these areas develop some industry of their own. If only some sort of plan would materialize to stimulate use of the natural resources of the area (gravel/mineral pits, logging/lumber yards) as well as light manufacturing (Poland Spring bottling plant, Precision Metals etc...). If only some sort of plan...

This "good for them=bad for us" line of thinking has got to stop! I understand that central Maine desperately needs rail service and that should be a priority as far as the MaineDoT is concerned, but I don't see how it inevitably conflicts with any future development of potential western maine/NH rail service. I mentioned earlier that I think the Mountain Division would be perfect for an eventual Montreal/Portland rail link if we use canadian tourist dollars as an incentive and involve both NH and Maine DoTs since BOTH states stand to benefit. As gas prices continue to rise and global warming inspires unprecedented interest in rail travel we need to think beyond old boundaries and forge new alliances that will ensure mutual benefit. Pitting North Conway against Freeport and the mountain division against other potential corridors is not only absurd, it is also counterproductive and utterly lacking in the imagination it will require to build this network of the future.

Mr. 4266:
Yes, in fact I have been to both Freeport and North Conway many many times. More than I can count. I am somewhat more familiar with Freeport because it is closer to where I live and in all fairness I have worked for L.L Bean before.

The "us vs. them" mentality/line of thinking is perhaps more simply expressed as 'self-preservation' from the perspective in state here. I don't know what your personal context is for understanding my comments, I can say that my personal context or 'perspective' for these issues comes from working with people, including some in my own family, that have watched their jobs get moved out of state to 'tax-advantaged','right-to-work', or 'overseas' locations where companies felt they could have higher profits for roughly the same quality of product.

Keeping in mind the subject/reason for this topic, which was a reactivation of the Mountain Division that was/is going to be funded by the Maine DOT for the Maine portion of the Mountain Division, my argument remains that there is no logical reasoning for activating a service that has a logical terminus right now in North Conway and the White Mountains region. The Mountain Division right now beyond that area is in terrible shape with the VT section in particular supposedly untouched by Maintenance of Way crews for the past 20 years.

For those of us who live outside of Southern Maine the easy argument against this funding, is that it is wasteful to spend these dollars on this project right now. There are areas that are much higher priority for this funding that have sufficient demand for rail service to support a commuter rail operation tomorrow, unlike the Mountain Division study which indicated a passenger load of something like '30 passengers' per day, mostly from Westbrook.

For people living in Southern Maine the easiest argument for not spending the funds, right now, on the Mountain Division is much easier to understand. If Mainers outside of the southern portion of the state do not see some benefit eventually from rail service in southern Maine then they will refuse, through their elected officials in the State Senate, to continue to pay for a service that is not going to benefit the entire state. By benefit I mean two things, rail passenger service in their region and transit oriented-development, similar to what is taking place in Biddeford/Saco and Old Orchard Beach. The good news is that other Mainers want this service and its follow-on benefits too! The bad news is that funding projects like the Mountain Division reactivation which bring minimal benefits to small numbers of citizens while ignoring other parts of the state that are far more populous and have growing and legitimate needs for rail service, right now, will eventually lead to a grinding halt in funding for rail rehabilitation.

I want to be very clear that I'm not saying that the Mountain Division should NEVER be reactivated. It has a lot of potential for all of the things that you have mentioned. Please understand that using those funds, on that project, right now, will make it very easy for rail service opponents to criticize rail spending as wasteful and unfortunately they will be right. How can we say that bringing service back to Fryeburg, even on a limited basis for either excurison passenger or light freight, is more important than medium to heavy duty commuter service to Lewiston or Augusta and points in between, with the potential for inter-city connections to the north and south of the State?

I agree that the Mountain Division has great potential for a nice Class I or Class II light freight operation, but other areas have potential for a high demand Class III operation. When I say high demand I want to explain that I'm talking about several hundred passengers per day, at least to start with. That is something that ultimately should be a higher priority for Maine DOT and will make it all that much easier to restore the Mountain Division later on.

Yes, partnerships are a great idea, and if one could be created the would be mutually beneficial to both states that would be great. Unfortunately up to this point in time the people of NH through their state elected officials have seen fit to take advantage of the Downeaster service and not pay a dime in state assistance for the service, leaving the State of Maine to continue to fund the service including service to parts of NH that have greatly benefited from the serivce. The idea that Maine would fund another passenger service with no assistance from NH for service that would compete with our own retail base in state, as opposed to the Downeaster, which I believe is modal substitution, seems wrong to me.

I welcome further discussion.

Were one truly wishing to provide commuter service to downtown Portland, they, from a marketing point of view, would most likely wish to rehabilitate the old railroad tracks that branch off at St. John St. and run up behind the ball field and the Expo to the Bayside area across Forest Ave and into the new business district which would be the best area to set up a shuttle bus service from. Without that and to just terminate at the current Amtrak station would have negligible benefits at best.

Prior discussion on another thread re: Portland Amtrak Station

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 7&start=30

There is some significant debate as to whethter or not reconstruction of Portland Union Station on the old site off the Portland Terminal Co. track is worthwhile or sensible.