The Maine Central Railroad Mountain Division

MEC407 wrote:Interesting article, but once again they got one major detail wrong: the state now owns from Westbrook to Fryeburg, not from Portland to Fryeburg. Pan Am still owns the critical Portland-Westbrook section.

Does Pan Am operate on any of this line?

I was looking at the area with Live Search.

The SAPPI mill in Westbrook is still a Pan Am customer, technically, but I don't know when the last time was that they shipped or received anything by rail. "wolfmom69" might know.

Thinking openly the following comes to mind:

"Bridge to Nowhere" is a pretty powerful metaphor for the Mountain Division as long as it is reactivated without the possibility of service to Montreal someday. This makes the situation very problematic in my opinion because I believe MDOT's longterm plan is to have Montreal service run via Auburn-St. Lawrence & Atlantic ROW. Therefore if the Mountain Division where in fact to be reactivated without the prospect of Montreal service, the question of "What's the point?" really is in play.

I think it has also been thoroughly established that commuter service is not a viable option for the line, however through freight service to or from Portland remains a tantalizing possibility for operators other than MEC/GRS/PAR, but the car load volume simply is not there at present. "If you build it they will come.", may not apply in this situation, unlike the Downeaster extension to Brunswick and service reactivations and restorations to Augusta, Lewiston and Waterville.

I have also always felt that it was not in the best interests of the state to promote N. Conway over Freeport, or to give the NH outlet town any inherent advantage over our own.

One of the only real answers that I can see is that the Moutain Division is probably one of the most efficient East-West routes in New England along with the SLR in terms of any mode of ground transportation and has more potential in the long run to beat car traffic than rail does almost anywhere else. It also has the ability to traverse certain parts of New England in the winter time that can't be done becuase the Kancamangus Highway gets shut down in the winter, but these applications are for NH and VT purposes. East/South of N. Conway the line would have little use in this type of application becuase the roads in that part of Maine are sufficiently good and maintained well enough that car travel is still possible in the winter time.

Whether or not there is any significant rail traffic from ME/Portland to St. Johnsbury VT and points in between is the real question as this would possibly justify the running of some type of shuttle service. Although a corridor service is not ever likely it seems possible that there may be sufficient passsenger volume to justify shuttle service (two or three times daily, or less) with one or maybe two passenger coaches. However, this possiblity becomes problematic again because 1. It would inevitable support N. Conway and 2. It would use up resources and funds that should be used to get service going to/from Montreal and Lewiston with connecting service to Portland and OOB.

I guess the real answer is that the State should be focusing more on the Lewiston-Portland connection and the MEC Lower Road from Brunswick to Augusta to Waterville with possible connection along the Northern end of the main line to Bangor. This is a potentially viable service that needs to be studied and eventually should be given significant resouces. I don't often recommend against any project that reactivates and rehabilitates rail in Maine but having examined some of the issues at hand unless someone can bring up other service or customers that need to be considered I have to agree with the people in Windham that spending further funding on the Mountain Division before we look more seriously at reactivating service to Lewiston/Augusta/Waterville may in fact be a serious waste of money.

Furthermore, service reactivations in Central Maine have more potential to bring add even more passenger load to the Downeaster which ultimately is the best of both worlds. Seems to me like the Mountain Division may need to wait a while yet.

I will have to agree with you. The Mountain Division has no local traffic to warrant any rehabilitation as far as freight goes. There was little to none when bridge traffic reached its peak on the line in the 1970's. The line does have good East, West connections but as long as there’s one railroad involved no bridge traffic will run on the line again. The line coming up from NH is sufficient enough; minus Pan Am's deficiencies to run a railroad properly.
We should just be happy that the section that made the Mountain Division famous is being operated and maintained by the Conway Scenic Railroad.

The argument makes sense from a Maine point of view, but I don't see how bringing Montreal tourism to N. Conway would directly effect Freeport. In fact if (and its a big "if") NH ever got their act together it wouldn't be too hard to bring a passenger train all the way through N.Conway on State owned trackage. The Notch portion would only add to the attraction of a "rail cruise" sort of thing. Rehabbing the Mtn. Division all the way to Portland then would make sense both a connection to Montreal and as a way for Canadians to get to the coast (including Freeport).
Also, since when is the Kancamangus closed in the winter?

The Kancamangus no longer closes for the winter, and hasn't for some time. Bear Notch Road however, still closes.

... and you've got a NH tag?

The most misspelled and mispronounced highway name in the country: Kancamagus (pr kan-ka-maw-gus)

Cowford wrote:... and you've got a NH tag?

The most misspelled and mispronounced highway name in the country: Kancamagus (pr kan-ka-maw-gus)

They are plates in NH...tags are from Mass!

Sorry on the spelling I cut and paste from another posting on my mobile! Kancamagus.

And the pronunciation...hogwash...contested! Even though I have seen very few places state it is Kan-ka-maw-gus (Wiki being one, but we all know how full of facts that place is) I have yet to hear anyone in 26 years pronounce it that way and us locals just simply refer it to it as "the kanc". But in long form I commonly hear it as Kanc-ah-mang-gus, where them outta statahs say Kang-kuh-mang-gus.

Ian MacMillan wrote:The Kancamangus no longer closes for the winter, and hasn't for some time. Bear Notch Road however, still closes.

Wow - that's how I've been spelling it for years... and noone corrected me. Live and learn!

"RAILROAD.NET FORUMS: 1000 uses, from railroads to spelling, and everything in between"

Unless people in Bridgton or Fryeburg start screaming for rail service either passenger or freight, OR Poland Spring decides to start shipping large amounts of bulk water via rail there simply is no justification for restoration of the Maine owned portion of the Mountain Division BEFORE other far more important sections of track in Maine such as the Lewiston-Winthrop-Waterville Back Road or the Augusta Lower Road.

The above mentioned sections have serious potential as part of an intra/inter state rail network and would very likely generate sufficient ridership to justify a commuter rail operations. Furthermore, the Augusta Lower Road already has an operator that is willing, able and interested in running a commuter operation. That is decades ahead of where the Moutain Division is right now. I think maybe someday, somehow there will be a demand for rail service on the Mountain Division. It's just is not now. I think the funding that the state is looking at using for work on the Mountain Division is better spent on the Augusta Lower Road which is in far better comparative condition. The dollars spent would go much further towards efficiently developing new passenger rail infrastructure.

Although I rarely ever believe that rail projects in Maine are a waste of money, putting large allocations of tax dollars into the Mountain Division at a time when other portions of the state rail infrastructure can do far more with the same money is inherently wasteful. This is especially true if some local residents aren't interested in a rail service restoration. It would be supported much better up in Central Maine and will do more politically for rail service in Maine overall by creating new political stakeholders in the rail passenger revival. Residents in communities along the Mountain Division already have inter-state rail passenger service access in York county because of the Downeaster.

I do think that any ideas in favor of abandonment of the Mountain Division are totally wrong. The state should take incremental steps over time and perhaps slightly increase the pace of its annual maintenance program on the Mountain Division by doing steps such as, maintaining crossing's and crossing grade signals in a turn key condition, fixing washouts when they occurs, brush cutting and spraying, maintaining existing drainage and preventing flooding from beavers. These basic steps would keep the Mountain Division from sinking into the state of poor repair that the Calais Branch went into in the last ten years, while still allowing the state the option to invest dollars later on to restart the line relatively easily if they wish.

I absolutely do believe that inter-state service along the Mountain Division through North Conway is bad for Maine and bad for Freeport in particular. We do not need to make it any easier for people to take money out of Maine and spend it in sales-tax free NH. If they want to do this there is no need to subsidize their travel to and from NH. This would in fact make it potentially cheaper for Portland residents to go to North Conway as opposed to Freeport. That is a really bad idea and bad for one of the largest and best employers in the state of Maine. There simply is no reason to treat a company that has been so good to the people of Maine and is owned by a Maine family, in such a poor fashion.

Arranging for Montreal-Portland service through Lewiston is not only politcally savvy it's also economically sensible. Lewiston/Auburn needs the resulting Transit Oriented Development that could potentially occur as a result of this project far more than Portland does. It's also a good substitute for continuing to try and develop airports in Maine. Our state's population centers are spread out in such a way and have such low density that we are uniquely unsuited to an avaition based model for national and regional transportation. This results in the fact that in order to fly anywhere in the U.S. we either must drive to Manchester, NH for Southwest Airlines, Boston Logan Airport for international travel or be flown from Portland, Augusta, or Bangor to a hub and then transfer, potentially as many as three or four times.

For all these reasons and many more development of the Mountain Division before other more important, deserving, and interested rail corridors in Maine would be a disappointing waste of state transportation funding. The recent purchase of the section ending in Westbrook was good future planning by the Maine DOT but further development and capital spending beyond basic infrastructure maintenance and protection mentioned earlier is a fundamental fiscal and political mistake that could have serious negative consequences for rail service development in the rest of the state for a long period of time to come. Loss of public confidence in this the rail service restoration program at this time is the worst thing that could happen at the worst possible time.

I still don't quite understand this North Conway vs Freeport formulation. Perhaps you have access to economic data that states otherwise, but it seems to me that people come to Freeport for the ocean and the shopping and to NC for the mountains and the shopping. Two completely different packages. I understand Maine may have some heavy taxes but I find it hard to believe that they would be enough to make NC a more attractive shopping destination for Portlanders.
The issue i'm proposing is under the hypothetical (admittedly unlikely) scenario that NH were to restore their portion of the mountain division as a connection for Canadian tourism. Most of the line is already being operated by CSRR and to be quite honest I don't see Russ and Dot Seybold getting in the way of a new stream of tourist dollars. I simply don't understand how Maine wouldn't stand to benefit from this money. Especially since the Mt Wash Valley region and coastal Maine offer two very different natural attractions (mountains and seashore) that could appeal to the same clientele.
Restoring passenger rail to this country is going to take more interstate cooperation and the development of mutually beneficial planning. Provincial thinking will get us nowhere.

I agree with 4266.
I cant see people from the Portland area going all the way up to NC just to buy a pair of shoes tax free!
I would think the cost of the train up and back would negate any savings.
I also agree that there's plenty enough attraction on the Maine coast that verry little would be lost to NH.
I actually belive more the reverse might be true:
People from NH coming down the coast to hit the beaches!
If decent rail service were available at a competative-to-highway rate then you might actually see more of this kind of thing.
As it is now, such service does not exist, so there is nothing to compare to.

I think where getting a head of are selves. If the Mt. Division is going to be restored in the next 5 to 10 years it’s going to be for freight only. If there is any push for passenger service I can't see it being nothing more than a scenic train ride but that’s years down the road.

b&m 1566 wrote:I think where getting a head of are selves. If the Mt. Division is going to be restored in the next 5 to 10 years it’s going to be for freight only. If there is any push for passenger service I can't see it being nothing more than a scenic train ride but that’s years down the road.

DOT's plan is about sending people to Fryeburg Fair via rail, another touristy hook. I am sure there is a whole lot more to it than that, but that is what they wrote in some of their handout materials from a chamber meeting I was at.

SLR 393 wrote: DOT's plan is about sending people to Fryeburg Fair via rail, another touristy hook. I am sure there is a whole lot more to it than that, but that is what they wrote in some of their handout materials from a chamber meeting I was at.

I love the idea of having rail service available to Fryeburg Fair. HOWEVER, I think the problem is not getting to the fair from miles and miles away (like Portland)....ITS the last mile that takes over an hour to travel. Thus, if rail service to the fair were to be established it would need to have a spur built tdirectly to the fair grounds. Otherwise you will have entire trainloads of unhappy people sitting in parked bus shuttles.

This is a perfect operation for Conway Scenic RR to operate! They could conceivably provide service from North Conway to the fair with stops at North-South lot, Redstone, and Center Conway. Another CSRR train could operate the Maine side departing from Bridgeton, ME and terminating at the fair. Perhaps the new RDC could handle the valley duty in the absence of normal trains.