Add service to Cornwells Heights, PA

Folks you are missing the point of what I was trying to make. I did not say that all NEC or Keystone service trains should stop at Cornwells. It would be ridiculous to. I said to stop some more but not all there. Someone on here suggest to stop more Amtrak trains at North Philly which sound more ridiculous then stopping at Cornwells considering that more Septa trains stop at North Philly to and from 30th Street then it does at Cornwells. As was mentioned before, The Clockers use to stop at Cornwells and there were loads that got on and off those trains daily at that stop and when the clocker service was conveyed to NJT and truncated west of Trenton, Amtrak didnt provide really any alternate trains to stop and in fact they stopped advertising Cornwells and uped the fares so much that Amtrak ridership dropped 60 percent at Cornwells. That was recently mentioned in a local newspaper here not to long ago. Many people from Bucks County work in NYC and want the train to stop there so they can get a 1 seat ride up and back without having to switch trains in Trenton. To say that Cornwells would never be a Metro Park is an under statement because there is a huge 1600 spot park and ride lot right off I-95 waiting to be utilized more.I know Metro Park has alot of parking there as well and it could be more or less. Everyone on this board is in the mindset that if its not a major station in a downtown area then Amtrak shouldnt stop and that everyone should have to take a local commuter train just because its there. If thats the case then why provide the Keystone service in its current form since half that line is being served by excellent Septa service from Thorndale into Philly and maybe we should cut the Amtrak trains back so that it only runs between Harrisburgh and Thorndale and transfer everyone to a Septa local to Philly and get another train from there. I mean, why stop at Downingtown Exton, Paoli and Ardmore since its so well served by Septa. This is the argument you are trying to feed to me and others on here.Yes stopping at Cornwells adds maybe 4 extra minutes to a trip but thats not a big deal. Yes train service needs to be speedy and effecient but you have to make it reasonably attractive for people to want to use it otherwise why have it?????

Suburban Station wrote:

psct29 wrote:How proactive was PA in regards to the Clockers that used to stop there? Cornwalls Heights and North Phily were Clocker stops and when NJT took over the clockers perhaps the good folks at the Commonwealth of PA should have offered to kick in some $$$ to keep the service going under NJT... That being said I don't see any reason why all Keystones can't stop at Cornwells Heights (and maybe even a few added stops at North Philly)

didn't the clockers take an a leaisurely 1h45m to NYP?

I'd like to see the Keystones stop at North PHilly. that would make a good interchange point with the lines to chestnut hill and the new north phila transportation center. It's only about 1h10m form North Philly to NYP (unless you stop at cornwells, brunswick, princetown...well you get the picture). Cornwell heights requires a move to the outer tracks, AFAIK, so maybe that's why they don't want to stop there. It sounds liek the real problem is that SEPTA doesn't provide adequate service for connections.

So ridership warrants stopping all or more trains at North Philly? Ridership is that high going from NYC Boston or DC to Chesnut Hil?????? This sounds like a ridiculous idea considering theres R7-8 service from 30th street to Chesnut Hill West or Trenton and then you have the Broad Street Subway from downtown up Broad Street to North Philly.... I mean come on now Suburban Station, this is the same argument you mention to me and I know ridership at North Philly is about half then it is at Cornwells Heights..

BuddSilverliner269 wrote: So ridership warrants stopping all or more trains at North Philly? Ridership is that high going from NYC Boston or DC to Chesnut Hil?????? This sounds like a ridiculous idea considering theres R7-8 service from 30th street to Chesnut Hill West or Trenton and then you have the Broad Street Subway from downtown up Broad Street to North Philly.... I mean come on now Suburban Station, this is the same argument you mention to me and I know ridership at North Philly is about half then it is at Cornwells Heights..

no, future ridership. not saying it's different than cornwells, it's the same. Amtrak upped the fares because congress outlawed the commuter discounts they were giving. I think Amtrak shouldn't have gotten rid of the clockers. perhaps they could have reduced the number of NJ stops theymade (the trip was a bit too long and there were too many NJT riders hoggin the seats) but all told, the service filled a need. I sympathize with your plight, though I don't think cornwells is any more important than any other stop. If I were designing the routes, Keystones woudl stop in both cornwells and north philly but not anywhere between trenton and EWR if not Newark.
someone on here said NJ pays for corridor service, I have not heard of any NJ paying for any NEC service. please rovide some detail?

All the Regional's should express through N. Philly and Cornwell. But since the Keystone serves mostly Pennsylvanians, and is subsidized by the state, most (if not all) Keystones should stop at CH and N. Phil.

I'm sure this argument will come up again in five years when MARC begins service to Elkton (and Newark DE) again. The residents will probably complain about the limited number of commuter trains and want Amtrak to stop there as well. However, a single Regional (151) does serve Perryville and Edgewood in the morning.

realtype wrote:All the Regional's should express through N. Philly and Cornwell. But since the Keystone serves mostly Pennsylvanians, and is subsidized by the state, most (if not all) Keystones should stop at CH and N. Phil.

I'm sure this argument will come up again in five years when MARC begins service to Elkton (and Newark DE) again. The residents will probably complain about the limited number of commuter trains and want Amtrak to stop there as well. However, a single Regional (151) does serve Perryville and Edgewood in the morning.

Just to clarify that the Keystone Corridor runs from PHL-HAR. This is what is subsidized by the Commonwealth of PA. The PHL -NYC is not subsidized by PA period.Again this is Amtrak's NEC .There seems to be alot of confusion pertaining to this topic. This was my whole point. Im not against stopping at CH if PA was to drop some funds and pitch in. No Problem. But to just

complain to Amtrak about raising ticket prices and less or no trains stopping here is crazy. Amtrak still has a business to run and needs of the business still are 101.Again for Amtrak as a company standpoint there is no plus side to stopping at Cornwells Heights.


Now Maryland is a horse of a different color. Amtrak operates a weekday MARC commuter rail service on the Northeast Corridor (Washington-Baltimore-Perryville) under a contract with the Maryland Transit Administration. There should be no argument at all on where Amtrak stops in Maryland because Maryland is paying for it.

Amtrak and Maryland participate in a shared capital agreement, in which both Amtrak and the state of Maryland invest in joint benefit improvements, including track and interlocking upgrades, and interior and platform improvements at Washington Union Station, Baltimore Penn Station, BWI Marshall Airport, and New Carrollton. Short-term plans currently are under development to increase equipment storage capacity at Baltimore and Washington, add MARC frequencies, and further enhance and expand the BWI station. Also, MARC’s growth and investment plan calls for additional service, expanded parking, new storage and maintenance facilities, and track expansion to be phased in over the next 30 years.

Suburban Station wrote:
someone on here said NJ pays for corridor service, I have not heard of any NJ paying for any NEC service. please provide some detail?

If you want to know who pays what and for what service's everything you need to find is on amtrak.com (amtrak state facts)

Partnerships
New Jersey Transit (NJT) operates more than 400 trains weekdays (about half as much on weekends) on the Northeast Corridor (NEC). Under joint benefit and annual contribution agreements extending back to 1989, New Jersey has directly invested more than $350 million in projects primarily designed to help achieve a state of good repair and enhance the reliability of existing services. Projects funded under the joint benefit agreements include welded rail and concrete tie installation on all tracks in NJT service territory, renewal and upgrades to major interlockings (such as County and Hudson), improvements to substations, catenary, and signals, and contributions to the New York Penn Station life safety and tunnels program.
As part of its Access to the Region’s Core project, NJT is planning a new two-track tunnel under the Hudson River and new station at 34th Street in Manhattan to meet NJT’s future requirements. Amtrak has been participating in the planning of this project.
Station Upgrades
NJT has started construction on a project to expand and upgrade the station at Trenton, which is used by Amtrak, NJT commuter trains, NJT River LINE light-rail trains, and SEPTA commuter trains. The $56.6 million project is expected to be completed in 2007.
NJT began reconstruction of the Metropark station in spring 2007. The $47-million project, to be completed in 2010, will include longer platforms and canopies, climate-controlled shelters on the platforms, a larger station building, and LCD train information system. The station opened in 1971.

amtbuff wrote:

realtype wrote:All the Regional's should express through N. Philly and Cornwell. But since the Keystone serves mostly Pennsylvanians, and is subsidized by the state, most (if not all) Keystones should stop at CH and N. Phil.

I'm sure this argument will come up again in five years when MARC begins service to Elkton (and Newark DE) again. The residents will probably complain about the limited number of commuter trains and want Amtrak to stop there as well. However, a single Regional (151) does serve Perryville and Edgewood in the morning.

Just to clarify that the Keystone Corridor runs from PHL-HAR. This is what is subsidized by the Commonwealth of PA. The PHL -NYC is not subsidized by PA period.Again this is Amtrak's NEC .There seems to be alot of confusion pertaining to this topic. This was my whole point. Im not against stopping at CH if PA was to drop some funds and pitch in. No Problem. But to just

complain to Amtrak about raising ticket prices and less or no trains stopping here is crazy. Amtrak still has a business to run and needs of the business still are 101.Again for Amtrak as a company standpoint there is no plus side to stopping at Cornwells Heights.


Now Maryland is a horse of a different color. Amtrak operates a weekday MARC commuter rail service on the Northeast Corridor (Washington-Baltimore-Perryville) under a contract with the Maryland Transit Administration. There should be no argument at all on where Amtrak stops in Maryland because Maryland is paying for it.

Amtrak and Maryland participate in a shared capital agreement, in which both Amtrak and the state of Maryland invest in joint benefit improvements, including track and interlocking upgrades, and interior and platform improvements at Washington Union Station, Baltimore Penn Station, BWI Marshall Airport, and New Carrollton. Short-term plans currently are under development to increase equipment storage capacity at Baltimore and Washington, add MARC frequencies, and further enhance and expand the BWI station. Also, MARC’s growth and investment plan calls for additional service, expanded parking, new storage and maintenance facilities, and track expansion to be phased in over the next 30 years.

Amtbuff, yes the state of Pa may pay for the services of the Keystone services between Phila and Harrisburgh, but its also because ofthe state that those trains continue between Phila and NYC .If I recall and I may be wrong, but Harrisburg fought with Amtrak to keep those trains running between Philly and NYC when they came in from Harrisburg instead of having people switch trains in Philly to go to Harrisburg. Speaking of money, again, how much money does it cost to stop at Cornwells when theres already a stop there???NONE.You bring up the partnership between Marc and Amtrak(which I hope continues for many many years) but you seem to be under the impression thta PA doesnt contribute any money to Amtrak when I believe Pa is one of the leading states that subsidizes Amtrak and you mention the capital improvements, what capital improvements need to be made at Cornwells???Grant it, the EB platform isnt the best but its still good for 6 cars or 5 sets of doubles on the platform, and the wb platform is is practically new, and a 1600 spot park an ride off I95.

As a side note amtbuff, the Keystone line is considered part of the NEC, DC to Newport News and the Springfield line under Amtraks operating parlance ,so its funny that you say that PA doesnt contribute to NEC operations is a moot statement

amtbuff wrote: New Jersey Transit (NJT) operates more than 400 trains weekdays (about half as much on weekends) on the Northeast Corridor (NEC). Under joint benefit and annual contribution agreements extending back to 1989, New Jersey has directly invested more than $350 million in projects primarily designed to help achieve a state of good repair and enhance the reliability of existing services. Projects funded under the joint benefit agreements include welded rail and concrete tie installation on all tracks in NJT service territory, renewal and upgrades to major interlockings (such as County and Hudson), improvements to substations, catenary, and signals, and contributions to the New York Penn Station life safety and tunnels program.

that's all well and good, but they're merely paying for some of what they use.

amtbuff wrote: As part of its Access to the Region’s Core project, NJT is planning a new two-track tunnel under the Hudson River and new station at 34th Street in Manhattan to meet NJT’s future requirements. Amtrak has been participating in the planning of this project.

didn't they jsut cut Amtrak out of the picture? some thanks for using their tunnels for decades.

amtbuff wrote: Station Upgrades
NJT has started construction on a project to expand and upgrade the station at Trenton, which is used by Amtrak, NJT commuter trains, NJT River LINE light-rail trains, and SEPTA commuter trains. The $56.6 million project is expected to be completed in 2007.
NJT began reconstruction of the Metropark station in spring 2007. The $47-million project, to be completed in 2010, will include longer platforms and canopies, climate-controlled shelters on the platforms, a larger station building, and LCD train information system. The station opened in 1971.

so they're upgrading their stations. didn't SEPTA add a huge parking garage to Cornwell heights?

amtbuff wrote:Amtrak still has a business to run and needs of the business still are 101.Again for Amtrak as a company standpoint there is no plus side to stopping at Cornwells Heights.

I'm not so certain about that. Amtrak got out of th emarket because it was forced to by congress (required them to raise monthly discounts by law, I remember the flyers they circulated). I also remember NJT customers being on the old clockers, taking up the seats. while I believe I've seen that NJT reimbursed Amtrak for this, tht was likely cold comfort for tis customers who, like myself, were probably largely unaware of this.

It seems to me Amtrak should have a cheaper, slower line on the NEC.

Suburban Station wrote: It seems to me Amtrak should have a cheaper, slower line on the NEC.

They did have this and they got out of it. The slots were turned over to NJT so it's quite questionable that there's even track (tunnel) capacity to add a bunch more slower/cheaper trains.

The point remains the same... the Northeast Corridor shouldn't be turned into one giant commuter rail line that makes 25 stops between Washington and New York. If you add more service to Cornwells Heights then who's to say that Amtrak shouldn't add more service to Aberdeen, Perryville, Newark, N. Philly, Princeton Jct., New Brunswick, heck let's add Marcus Hook and Chester, too.

Also, it keeps being conveniently ignored that the most important service between Cornwells Heights and New York (morning northbound, evening southbound allowing for a work day in Manhattan) is being accommodated by Amtrak with two stops in each direction. Lastly, this still strikes me as an inadequacy of SEPTA, not Amtrak.

MudLake wrote:

Suburban Station wrote: It seems to me Amtrak should have a cheaper, slower line on the NEC.

They did have this and they got out of it. The slots were turned over to NJT so it's quite questionable that there's even track (tunnel) capacity to add a bunch more slower/cheaper trains.

The point remains the same... the Northeast Corridor shouldn't be turned into one giant commuter rail line that makes 25 stops between Washington and New York. If you add more service to Cornwells Heights then who's to say that Amtrak shouldn't add more service to Aberdeen, Perryville, Newark, N. Philly, Princeton Jct., New Brunswick, heck let's add Marcus Hook and Chester, too.

Also, it keeps being conveniently ignored that the most important service between Cornwells Heights and New York (morning northbound, evening southbound allowing for a work day in Manhattan) is being accommodated by Amtrak with two stops in each direction. Lastly, this still strikes me as an inadequacy of SEPTA, not Amtrak.

I both agree and disagree with you. I'm not talking about a commuter rail line, but something that will actually get peopel OFF the highway with reasonably competitive trip times and fares. It's not unheard of to have a four levels of service along the line. MARC should be funding the construction of a fourth track anyways. There's tunnel capacity off peak I'd imagine and even at peak, it's a matter of who gets the slots. Obviously if you start stopping trains at every station it opens up a can of works, which is a point I believe I already made. OTOH, NJ does have metropark, Newark, and trenton while PA only gets 30th st. I've read many references to restoring service to North Philly as a a means of revitalization...which is smart, since it's only 70 minutes from midtown. I do agree that any such services or sservice restoration shouldn't interfere with the operation of the higher end lines, Acela and Regionals.

Marc doesn't have any money to spend on a 4th track.

r40slant wrote:Marc doesn't have any money to spend on a 4th track.

Wrong.

I agree that Amtrak doesn't need to be stopping at every Tom, Dick and Harry suburban station. Not sure why the needs of the few for one seat service should outweigh the needs of the many (that have no desire to stop 50 times between WAS and NYP).

Don't go by that growth plan thats a wish list.. Alot is pending finance for maryland goverment. Talking to the road foreman and trainmaster for penn line service weekend service they said the hold up in financial as well as equipment issues. Penn line marc crews and maintenace and tech need to be paid to work weekend service and also sloting the trains with amtrak trains also.

HokieNav wrote: I agree that Amtrak doesn't need to be stopping at every Tom, Dick and Harry suburban station. Not sure why the needs of the few for one seat service should outweigh the needs of the many (that have no desire to stop 50 times between WAS and NYP).

somtimes I wonder if it would be better if it were all still the Pennsy deciding how many express, intercity, regional, clockers, etc. anything between NY and Philadelphia involved three agencies plus the politicians. Heck, Philadelphia to Baltimore is four agencies!! If I were king, there's be expresses (Acela), intercity (between regionals and acela), regionals (stopping in smaller places like aberdeen and chester). I also think part of the problem is a shortcoming of the philadelphia transit system. Had they built the roosevelt bouldevard subway, there'd be a rapid transit connection from that area to North Philadelphia station.

Suburban Station wrote:

HokieNav wrote: I agree that Amtrak doesn't need to be stopping at every Tom, Dick and Harry suburban station. Not sure why the needs of the few for one seat service should outweigh the needs of the many (that have no desire to stop 50 times between WAS and NYP).

somtimes I wonder if it would be better if it were all still the Pennsy deciding how many express, intercity, regional, clockers, etc. anything between NY and Philadelphia involved three agencies plus the politicians. Heck, Philadelphia to Baltimore is four agencies!! If I were king, there's be expresses (Acela), intercity (between regionals and acela), regionals (stopping in smaller places like aberdeen and chester). I also think part of the problem is a shortcoming of the philadelphia transit system. Had they built the roosevelt bouldevard subway, there'd be a rapid transit connection from that area to North Philadelphia station.

I agree with you Suburban Station on this as well. In europe they offer many different services similar to what you mention on the same tracks and not a problem in operation. I found this page http://savecornwellsheights.com/ and it hasnt been updated in awhile but it proves that ridership was much much higher at Cornwells when more trains stopped there. Some really good info on this page and how the passengers got the royal treatment and notice how nice ridership was when there was better service and the fares were better.From what Im hearing more trains will be stopping at Cornwells and most likely be Keystone service. As was already mentioned, Bucks County is pushing for this stop because people want the trains to work in NYC without having to take 2 trains and just want to make the service more attractive to passengers.The same argument by people in Bucks County is the same argument as say why stop Keyston trains at Ardmore when that station is more then adequately served by Septa R5 service and people could take that to 30th street to get an Amtrak train, or Metro Park when that station has excellent NJT service.People abandoned Cornwells when service was slashed, fares raised and the station was stopped being advertised but with the advent of high gas prices the trains look more attractive.

2003
Cornwells Heights 23,386
2004
Cornwells Heights 25,968
2005
Cornwells Heights 25,097
2006
Cornwells Heights 12,558
2008
Cornwells Heights 7,721