MBTA commuter train accident at Canton 3/25/08

concordgirl wrote: Crush zone, eh? So what if the train is full, and they have trouble finding a seat-- where are conductors supposed to go to be relatively safe? Standing would be bad for anyone, you'd get tossed around the coach in a crash. Is that considered just part of the job? Yikes

Yes the vestibule is designed to absorb some of the force of a collision. Riding in a vesibule does carry an added risk in case of a severe wreck. Many years ago there was a Milwaukee troup train in Eastern Montana where 3 soldiers were having a smoke in the vestibule when the train wrecked. They were the only fatalities. (As I recall.) Modern passenger cars are much safer than the old wooden cars that would "telescope" and plow through the interior of the next car.

CSX Conductor wrote: The flat car just went the way that the route was lined for MBCR #917.

With one exception: the switch between the lumber company siding and the Stoughton branch. Was it lined for the branch or for the siding? If for the branch, how did the freight car get through it? If for the siding, why didn't earlier Stoughton locals end up in the lumber yard?

(This is a separate issue from the derail.)

Ron Newman wrote:

CSX Conductor wrote: The flat car just went the way that the route was lined for MBCR #917.

With one exception: the switch between the lumber company siding and the Stoughton branch. Was it lined for the branch or for the siding? If for the branch, how did the freight car get through it? If for the siding, why didn't earlier Stoughton locals end up in the lumber yard?

(This is a separate issue from the derail.)

I read somewhere that the freight car, fully loaded, was about 100 - 120 tons. I think it was in Metro or Boston Herald. That much weight can force the switch open, enabling the car to travel out of the freight yard.

Same thing happens with model railroads- if a train exits a siding, the train's flanged wheels force the switching tracks to allow the flange to travel into the mainline tracks.

Ron Newman wrote:

CSX Conductor wrote: The flat car just went the way that the route was lined for MBCR #917.

With one exception: the switch between the lumber company siding and the Stoughton branch. Was it lined for the branch or for the siding? If for the branch, how did the freight car get through it? If for the siding, why didn't earlier Stoughton locals end up in the lumber yard?

(This is a separate issue from the derail.)

Railroad equipment will pass through a trailing switch without stopping or derailing. The tie rods that connect the switch points to the switch mechanism (stand) simply bend or break. The real problem comes for the next facing-point movement over that switch which would likely lead to a derailment. Therefore, it sure seems to be the case that the freight car rolled through the lined-and-locked-for-the-main switch and onto the branch, particularly when earlier posts detail that other commuter trains traversed the Stoughton branch between the time the CSX local set the car out and the collision occurred. What is most troubling is that it appears that the very device that was supposed to prevent a runaway car failed. I suspect that a "knife-switch"-type derail will now be installed in this location.

I forget my track numbers in the area, but if the route at Canton Junction was lined for a straight move on the "westbound" track then the runaway would have trailed through the switch and then run down the "eastbound" track toward Boston. This is because Canton Jct does not have any sort of movable point diamond. Trains first cross onto the first track, then cross over again onto the second.

See here:

http://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/Railpics ... ON-JCT.jpg

That is correct.

According to my track chart, this picture is taken on NEC track 2 looking south (track west) from around MP 214.20, just south of Spaulding Street. The Stoughton branch diverges to the left in the picture, while the NEC continues straight and evenually to the right.

This switch is the first switch on the NEC that the freight car would have passed through to get onto the NEC. The freight car would have passed directly over the place where this photographer was standing, and then would have 'crossed over' from NEC track 2 to NEC track 1 at the 'Junction' interlocking at MP 214.30 (directly behind the photographer of this picture).

So, as stated previously, the freight car followed the exact path that 917 was taking.

Someone asked what would have happened to express trains 815 and 817 running straight through Canton Junction. I believe that they would have continued on unaffected while the freight car continued on towards Boston on the opposite track.

There are a number of interesting scenarios possible:

1) If the switch connecting the Stoughton Branch to the NEC was set for NEC traffic, would the frieght car have been able to 'push' through the moveable frog? Would the moveable frog have been enough to derail the car?

2) If the car derailed at that switch, then what? Would the track circuit probably get messed up enough by the damage that NEC signals would drop to restricting or stop? Even if the signals dropped, it is possible an approaching high speed train (any MBTA not stopping at Canton Junction or an Acela) on either track would have encountered the wreckage without enough time to stop......

3) If the freight car 'pushed' through the moveable frog, I agree that the freight car would have continued travelling north (track eastbound) on Track 2 towards Boston (until the freight car got rear-ended by a north / east bound train (imagine 130 mph Acela overtaking a 40 mph freight car)).

Any way you look at it, it is amazing that this accident wasn't more severe. A little change in the timing or alignment of the tracks, and there are a lot more worse scenarios possible than what happened.

Of course, there are a few scenarios where we just end up with a near miss, for example: the NEC is lined for through traffic and the freight car pushes through the moveable frog and continues east on Track 2. 817 (or any westbound train), westbound on Track 1 passes by the lonely freight car passing by eastbound on Track 2 and the engineer of 817 calls it in to dispatch and the dispatcher is able to deal with it....I don't know about the grades, but if the car made it all the way to Readville, it might be possible to switch it into the yard and derail it or crash it into other frieght cars there.....

It's all just crazy speculation......

Dave

or have it slowly glide into track 3 at south station. But seriously, all the talk about acelas hitting it, would it be worse if a regional lead by an AEM hit it or what about the GP40s? If a GP40 was hit, would the engineer be safer since they have the "safety cab"?

CSRR573 wrote:or have it slowly glide into track 3 at south station. But seriously, all the talk about acelas hitting it, would it be worse if a regional lead by an AEM hit it or what about the GP40s? If a GP40 was hit, would the engineer be safer since they have the "safety cab"?

The cabs of an AEM, Acela/HHP, GP40 and F40 are all about the same safety level: safer than if we had conventional-cab geeps such as NJTs and the 3247.

-Dan

Robert Paniagua wrote: Hi, welcome aboard the forum, I hope you were all right, did you guys brace yourself (place your hands firmly on the seatback in front of you? That's what I'd do, and I also couldn't believe that freight car was going 40mph, mainly through those crossing which I now understand their gates, bells and lights weren't even operating.

Bracing like you say is how you break wrists and other arm joints.

During the evening commute the Corridor can't run anything left-handed up track #2, so usually even the "express" PVD commuters are stuck behind the Stoughton locals until Junction Interlocking.

Anyone know where Engine 1030 is now? Is it at BET under repair or somewhere else?

#1030 has earned a special place in my heart.

Anyone remember when something like this happened on the Nevada Northern RR in 1995 with #93?

brokenrail wrote: Yes the vestibule is designed to absorb some of the force of a collision. Riding in a vesibule does carry an added risk in case of a severe wreck.

So what about the seats directly on the other side of the vestibule? They are right up against that wall. When you're sitting there and the conductor slams the outside door, you definitely feel it. I wonder if those seats are not such an awesome place to be in, during a crash. Also, they face directly into other people, rather than seatbacks...

concordgirl wrote:the conductor slams the outside door, you definitely feel it.

Tell me about it, I had this older guy going out from Lincoln the other day, he was wicked rough with the doors!!!

Right, someone on my a.m. train always slams the doors too. It's a little loud when you are trying to go back to sleep in the morning But seriously, I wonder what happens to the seats right up against the vestibule. Does the vestibule just crumple, and everything inside the coach is OK? Or do those seats get crumpled as well? Sorry, not trying to be morbid or creepy, just interested in the design and in what forces they build them to withstand

I'm not 100% sure but I believe there are crash posts inbetween??