NYA and the ESA project

Theres a rumor going around the LIRR that NYAR will be handling the excavation material and work trains from the ESA and not LIRR crew. is this really true? would it have anything to do with ESA not being railroad property yet?

I've heard stories for awhile that the NYAR would be transporting the rock, but I'll believe it when I see it.

From your post, I see there may be grumblings about LIRR crews not handling the job. From what I have heard, the dirt has been purchased by a private company, who has the dirt transported from the tunnel to their facility. This would make it a private freight job, not a job for a work train. The excavation is also not being performed by LIRR crews, it it being done by a private contractor. The only involvement the MTA has is for paying the contractors to construct the tunnel.

Jay

All work in Queens would be between the contractor and muck delivery site or a material supplier and would therefore be freight.

The LIRR has no part of this move, and cant. When LIRR gave up freight (by their own accord), in the transfer agreement, which they mostly written, they stated that revenue generating freight moves can only be handled by NYA. Vice versa NYA has handled LIRR coaches and engines, but cant transport a single soul in them. On NYA every train is considered a freight train, there are no NYA work trains. That is a LIRR thing. It is used to differentiate actual revenue freight from a maintenance-of-way train (work train).

Vice versa NYA has handled LIRR coaches and engines

They have handled them on NYAR property. They were brought to NYAR property by a LIRR work train. They were LIRR property until delivered to NYAR (or leased by LIRR until delivered to NYAR).

This is a different example than the ESA rock move.

Jay

jay I wouldn't characterize my post as a personal "grumbling". Actually more like an inquiry based on what you hear around the place.

I know this may sound silly, but, when the LIRR sold it's diesel coaches and it's 800 M1's, were they not sold to private entities as well, just as the rock and dirt are being sold to a private entity? Actually they didnt even own most of the electric cars they sold, the Port Authority did. Why didnt NYAR handle these moves too?

Does the LIRR have to be the orginating consignee to call it a "work train" even if its going to a private company? I know this may be semantics, but obviously selling surplus equipment would generate revenue for the LIRR.

There really is no hostility here at all. I'm just confused because on one hand you here about all this ESA work coming up and how much we (LIRR) will do. Then you hear the engines that will do this work will be green and not blue. Sounds like the only "work" anyone on the LIRR will do is to climb an embankment to take pictures of freight trains.

I hate to admit it but, it sounds like if the MTA were paying contractors to do work, even if it eventually benefits LIRR like ESA will, it's freight. The next big rainfall may be LIRR employees crying over all this. Thats life I suppose.

Like Jay had mentioned earlier with the agreement in place, since someone is going to be making money out of this deal, it's going to be NYAR since it's handling freight, not LIRR.

I heard some rumors as to where the rock will be going to. If it's the most probable that a very reliable source has told me, it's going to be one heck of a move. At least a everyday haul, but that's about as much as I can say now.

I didn't mean to make it sound like it was a personal "grumbling" about it. I meant the usual talk that goes on amongst the men (and women) at the railroad when rumors start flying. (I'm sure you know what I mean.)

What happened with the diesel coaches was this:

1) LIRR placed an ad in Trains Magazine looking for prospective buyers of their railroad coaches.
2) After problems developed with putting the C-3's (and their engines) in service as planned, the LIRR gave one buyer (who was only bidding on 30 cars) an offer he couldn't refuse. Take all 170 coaches (for the same price he was going to pay for 30) and lease them back to the LIRR until they were ready to dispose of them.
3) When the cars were decomissioned, they were brought to Fresh Pond by LIRR crews. This was done for two reasons. The first was the LIRR still leased the cars until interchanged. The second is the freight transfer agreement prohibits NYAR from billing LIRR to move their freight. Why would NYAR move the cars for free?

As for the M1's, they were loaded on flatcars. This becomes a liability issue when you are loading anything down on a car to get rigged to the car. The originating railroad must assume a huge liability for moving such cars. As such, they originated the freight, and had to move it to Pond because NYAR isn't qualified in Holban or the shops (or wherever they were loaded.) And again, NYAR can't bill LIRR for moving their freight.

Jay

I see what you mean jay. NYA can't bill LIRR for freight that originates with LIRR (like the M1's). So the LIRR had no choice but to ship them to NYA with their own people. Thankyou for that explanation.

ESA is different. If it was an actual LIRR project and LIRR needed the excavation material moved, the LIRR would have to move it themselves since they cant be billed by NYA to move it and NYA isn't going to do it for free. ESA is an MTA project so the customer is the contractor hired by the MTA and NYA can obviously bill the contractor. makes alot of sense.

You must be the only ones who know this because on the LI, the bosses are talking like this major project is coming around the corner and its like time to start planning on all the work trains. I really mean this. Guys are all set to run loads of dirt out of ESA. another pipe dream like the LIRR is taking back its freight. Theres going to be alot of disappointed people. But on the bright side, theres always the "excitement" of motorswitching an M7. Maybe if we're lucky, they will let us ride the side of the cars for fun!

The way this would work at Metro North is (contract wise), MNCR crews would run worktrains in GCT and acces to tunnel (if there were any) and would run the spill material to nearest interchange point. On MNCR that would be either Mount Vernon Yard or Croton East yard where the freight carrier would pick it up.
We would not have any freight company drop or pickup interchange cars just anywhere.
I would assume that LIRR has same kind of legal deal with NY&A.

This is an interesting topic. Lirrbrakeman and his generation apparently are going to experience what we were concerned about when the LIRR wanted to lease its freight to another railroad.

We worked on the transfer agreement and Jay is very well informed about the provisions of the agreement. I am nolonger employed by the LIRR and my information on current events is usually second hand so forgive me if I am mistaken about certain things.

I was told that NYAR is and has been delivering material in connection with ESA. Not the digging per se so far but track material, switches and such to be used in the project and Yard A. I can understand if the project were on territory not currently under LIRR control which would include any private consignee along the ROW. As well as land/infrastructure to be part of the ESA project but not yet under LIRR control. But Yard A? That's been LIRR since at least 1910. NYA was granted use of the yards in their territory and full operational control, but the land is still owned by the MTA/LIRR. It is very common for LIRR to hire contractors to perform work on their property, which technically is owned by the MTA, the most recent being Jamaica, which occured long after the demise of the LIRR Freight Dept. They even turned over a small yard to the contractor for exclusive use by them in connection with that project. Yet, there was never any doubt that it was LIRR work. Most projects on the LIRR that are performed by private contractors include the cost of the work trains and flagmen in their bids. Salaries and costs of these trains and personnel are billed to them by the LIRR and the railroad is reimbursed the costs of them. To sum it up, the railroad "hired" by the contractors for these projects was the LIRR. As the NYA will be the railroad "hired" by the contractor for ESA.

There has been several cases where a contractor protested the costs of the work trains and flagmen salaries to the Railroad when it was time to pay. Many times there were investigations by the Railroad because of this. When there was an LIRR Freight Dept. the "business" provided by contractors was added to the per annum car count and total gross revenue of the Dept, obviously similar to the effect it will have on NYA's car count and total revenue.

Again, I admit, I probably don't know what I am talking about. But I just can't see how the transfer agreement provisions would provide a legal mechanism for NYAR to perform all this work exclusively. Some yes probably, but all of it?

I hope my comments are not being viewed by NYAR employees as if it's "sour grapes" or anything like that. Certainly I would think you can understand that if the LIRR started moving intermodel traffic or some other typical freight operation, NYAR would protest very strongly as would it's employees. And should. Personally I think that these days, your more suitable for the ESA work than LIRR. Comment by some of the well informed NYA employees would be welcome. All I ask is please understand I am not at all trying to be derogatory in any way towards your employer or yourselves.

Liquidcamphor,

In no way would I take yours (or anyone else postings on this thread for that matter) as derogatory. It's just a discussion, and so far a very good one with no "children" interfering and calling each other names.

I think Dutch hit the nail on the head with how this is going to work, and it's probably similar to the deal that happened a few years back when the C-3's were being modified by a contractor in Yard A. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, here's what happened...

Kawasaki was to perform warranty work on the C3s that were already delivered. The Kawasaki employees (and this is second hand information, anyone please correct me if I'm wrong) were non-union, and thus, were not allowed to perform the work at Richmond Hill or at Hillside. Instead, they leased space in Yard A from NYAR. They constructed a temporary facility, and originally, the coaches were delivered by LIRR to Fresh Pond, and NYAR brought them to Yard A.

After a few runs, the unions complained that this work should have been performed by LIRR crews (and rightfully so, BTW). So, the procedure was modified that LIRR crews would bring the trains to Yard A, where they were interchanged with NYAR. NYAR would then perform switching at Yard A (which they were paid for by Kawasaki) to place them on their shop track for repairs.

This may be what is going to happen with the rock. There may be LIRR work trains bringing loaded cars to a location to be interchanged with NYAR. NYAR would then haul the rock to wherever it is billed.

Jay

Were heading down the right "track"

The ESA is a project of the MTA/LIRR. They have let out a contract and awarded it to a contractor. The contractor is given an easment to perform the work required on the contract. The portion of the ESA that is being built is not yet an MTA/LIRR property until certain milestones are met and the MTA/LIRR then take "substantial completion" and then "final completion" of the finished project. Until the contract is complete, the project limits are not the owners (LIRR/MTA) responsibility but those of the contractor. The contract stipulates who owns what and who can do what and what goes where when.
Most tunnel contracts give the ownership" of the excavated materials to the contractor. The contractor is free to do (within the law) what they wish with the materail unless specified otherwise in the contract. The project limits also outlines contract boundaries and these fall to the contractor for the duration of the contract. The owner (MTA/LIRR) can turn over their property (like Yard A) or acquire additonal property (like the ground under the buildings where the tunnel is being built) under a contract.

Simple example of this is who protects the site. Dragados (an ESA contractor) has hired a private security guard to protect the work site, otherwise there would be MTA police protecting the site.

To add to what Jtunnel posted, Yard A no longer exists. It was removed under ESA Contract CQ025 and an access track for NYAR access and M7 moves to and from Arch Street was installed (and is indeed under LIRR control). Any trackwork within the former Yard A location is under Contractor easement and can connect directly to NYAR access.

ESA contracts are managed solely by MTA Capital Construction Corporation. LIRR is included in the design process but all contracts are directly between the contractors and MTACC.