Amtrak Empire Service (New York State)

On these lighter runs , the conductor can be the lsa as well . This is done here in NZ on the long distance comuter run , and is very successful .

That's a good idea, shame the Amtrak unions would never let it fly. It takes some of the feathers out of the bed.

There is no possible way that Amtrak's conductors could ever perform the services of an LSA. I doubt seriously that the passenger loads on the trains operating in New Zealand come anywhere close to those that Amtrak's Empire Corridor trains regularly see. New York's trains are simply not some kind of milk runs passing through sheep country. Even on slow days, passenger counts exceed 200. On busy trains, they can exceed 400.

It was not unusual for an Amtrak LSA to sell well over $1,000 in food on a 2.5 hour run.

Rhinecliff, if you're right, I'm surprised Subway would bail out so fast. Do we have any official numbers for food service on those NYP-ALB trains? Or is it a secret that we would have to use the FOIA to pry out of Amtrak?

Railpace's Hot News page has this note about the Subway fiasco from Andy Kirk. The editor, who wrote the note, is presumably Carl Perelman.

NO SUBWAY SANDWICHES ON BOARD EMPIRE SERVICE TRAINS: The pilot project of having Subway Restaurants sell food and beverages on trains came to an abupt end on Nov. 23 when Empire Service train #237 came into Albany-Rensselaer station. The Subway crew, who had been servicing the passengers, got off the train, never to return. According to the Albany Times Union, Amtrak confirmed on the 28th that Subway had "temporarily suspended its participation" in an experimental program that was supposed to last 4 months. Neither Amtrak nor Subway would provide any information as to why the service abruptly ended. [Ed Comment: From the information I was able to gather, the Subway employees began the service with little or no experience having worked aboard a train and the management did not have a support system to guide them in necessary functions, such as loading the food aboard the train and transferring the food from train-to-train at Penn Station NY. The Subway folks, who are paid much less than the Amtrak on-board service personnel, were basically on their own, having to find out where the outbound train was in NY and having to put their own supplies aboard the trains. To have been successful, Subway would have had to sell a certain amount of food each day to justify operation aboard a train. At this point, it is unknown whether the decision to withdraw was based on lower than anticipated sales, greater than anticipated logistical challenges, or other factors.] (Andy Kirk - posted 11/30)

Rhinecliff wrote:There is no possible way that Amtrak's conductors could ever perform the services of an LSA. I doubt seriously that the passenger loads on the trains operating in New Zealand come anywhere close to those that Amtrak's Empire Corridor trains regularly see. New York's trains are simply not some kind of milk runs passing through sheep country. Even on slow days, passenger counts exceed 200. On busy trains, they can exceed 400.

It was not unusual for an Amtrak LSA to sell well over $1,000 in food on a 2.5 hour run.

The train in question is 6 - 8 carriages in lenght ( 300 -400 passengers ) , and is regularly full . trip lenght is 138 km .
There is a big difference between can't and won't ,as i say the differnce in NZ was the union saw what was necessary to keep the trains running ( and thus thier members jobs , or at least some of them ) and agreed to the necessary changes . im sure many of thier members did not like it , but the trains and the union survived .

My guess is that there are many facts about the NZ operation that are not comparable. How large is the crew size on the NZ train? What types of food are available. I suppose if the only things being sold are sodas, beer and chips, it might work. But the whole NZ operation just sounds too weird to me to believe.

When the passenger loads on Amtrak's Empire Corridor trains approach 400, the LSA is generally busy from the moment the trip begins until shortly before it ends. To implement that type of idea, one of Amtrak's two operating crew members would have to devote just about their entire time to working the food counter. And how would the people in line welcome the idea of the crew member leaving the counter when operational needs require?

To me, it sounds like railfantasy.

Is the New Zealand operation the "Capital Connection" referenced in the attached link?

http://www.tranzscenic.co.nz/services/capital.aspx

yup , thats the one . Incidentally the carriages on this train are rebuilt british rail mark 2 carriages (to virtually new specs , one egineers comment was that they were basically buying the design as they stripped them down completely ) .
some of the images in the image gallery of that website may give you some idea of the cafe operation .
The train managers wear a smart casual uniform with tie , and don a hiviz safety vest when leaving the train to perform station duties .
It is a very smooth efficent and professional operation , compared to the old govt cafetaria style buffet cars . They are busy , but i wouldnt say over run , and the service level is high .
I guess it borrows heavily form airline practice , certainly the food trolleys used are airline ones .

JoeG wrote:Mr Norman--
I hadn't realized that 48/49 now had no dining car NYP-ALB. I looked in the timetable, and it's true. So, how does Amtrak plan to deal with this train? Actually, since there is a commissary at Albany Airport, it seems to me that all they would need is one truck driver per shift, to bring the food to the Amtrak station from the airport commissary. So, I don't get how they need 14 commissary workers to supply the trains.
They have already degraded the service on the LSL, even before this change.
How long has the diner been terminating at Albany?

I think the Diner is stocked in New York or Chicago? I know the crew is Chicago based.

It appears that some are feeling that Amtrak's Subway service contract is dangerous.

Full story right here: http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/st ... =12/2/2005 That's an interesting article. I wonder what will happen.

I'll chime in as I have started riding Amtrak recently at least once a month now.

I take the Maple Leaf in both directions from Rome, NY to Toronto, ON which while shares the same route as the Empire Service train does on the New York portion, its not really a Empire Service train. I also know it still has Cafe Car service from ALB to NYP.

The Cafe I car I at least know on the Maple Leaf is always quite busy in both directions.

When I get on at Rome, the Cafe Car attendant always says they have everything on the Menu and do right untill the Amtrak-operated portion ends at Niagara Falls. He says its the same thing until the train reaches ALB and NYP.

Offtopic: I was under the impression that Maple Leaf was the other NYS-funded train than the Adirondack.

Got this from an ex ALB LSA subway will be back, he read the posting when he got off 48 last nite. It now seems that anyone that so much as lookes cross eyed at a subway employee will be terminated, I havent read the post Ill see if I can find one today.

Railjunkie wrote:Got this from an ex ALB LSA subway will be back, he read the posting when he got off 48 last nite. It now seems that anyone that so much as lookes cross eyed at a subway employee will be terminated, I havent read the post Ill see if I can find one today.

As far as termination is concerned, I don't think anybody will be
terminated without a FAIR AND IMPARTIAL HEARING.
Noel Weaver

The last time there was a fair and impartial hearing in my crew base, I cant remember. The last few guys that have gotten into trouble have lost there jobs over ticky tack stuff. There are no more warnings, they just bring up the charges and they are sure to include dishonesty(which will get you terminated) you go no deals are made unless you are one of the rats.

I think anyone here who has been in the railroad industry will concur with Mr. Junkie that, while the Book of Agreement may use the phrase 'fair and impartial investigation', there are all too many railroad operating officers who have built their careers upon their "body count' in removing persons from service - and they get an extra star is their assessment of dismissal is upheld - two extra if upheld "off the property' (NRAB/PLB) for now a precedent has been set.

I thought that mentality was bad enough when I was in Labor Relations (75-78); I understand it is even more prevalent today.