Railroad Forums
Railroad Management
- General discussion about working in the railroad industry. Industry employers are welcome to post openings here.
Moderator: thebigc
by Delta
Cowford wrote:Which class 1 CEO has not spent his entire career in the rail industry? a) Davidson - UP; b) Goode - NS; c) Ward- CSX; d) Harrison-CN; e) Ritchie- CP; f) Rose - BNSF; g) Haverty - KCS; h) none of the above.i) Richard Bressler - BN; j) Gerald Grinstein - BN
Oh wait, those 2 former CEOs don't fit into your answer so carefully tailored to avoid an honest answer, now do they...
Next up, boards of directors.
This is beginning to seem like shooting fish in a barrel.
by SlowFreight
I'm normally one to keep my mouth shut, but I'll interject here to go back to the original question. I've got some "been-there, done-that" perspective on getting into Class I management. I've also worked in a few other industries before and since, so I know how business is done in a few places outside railroading.
RCHO22, you need to ask yourself what it is you want out of railroad management. Are you looking to get into middle management and stay there? Be a front-line supervisor? Work your way up to executive management?
On education, the best advice I can give you is 1) finish a degree fairly promptly--don't change majors 30 times because you can usually get a Master's in something you like better for less effort; and 2) get the hardest degree you can possibly stand. Whether you want to be technical or a business guy, better to put the effort into, say, an engineering degree than a business degree if you've got the ability to finish it (before you flame me, this is not a dig at anyone who didn't major in engineering).
As to whether you need education, earlier posts are spot on when they talk about the glass ceiling for those without degrees. Ultimately, there's also a glass ceiling for people who only have a BS or BA and don't have graduate or professional education.
If you want to stay at the first-line supervisory level, I think the advice to start out in a craft or operating position is excellent advice. Even if you do know your stuff, operating people won't believe it if you didn't earn it the hard way. But, after working with cynical 20- and 30-year veterans, I found that all of them appreciated when I respected their knowledge and experience. It's the difference between keeping your mouth shut and the green ATM who told railroaders how to couple a standing cut. Your job as a manager isn't to tell them how to do the job--it's to make sure they can get it done.
If you're interested in executive ranks, you will NEED the MBA. It's a union card, just like joining UTU. You will also NOT want to hire in as a Trainmaster or yardmaster. Very few of the executives come out of the Operating Dept., even if it's the largest. Some come from legal, finance, marketing--you name it. What you've heard about horror stories in ops are usually true. So, you can get into middle management, but you probably won't reach the top. I knew many brilliant railroaders who couldn't even make Terminal Super after 15 or 20 years in ops. Part of that is because you must go to the headquarters to get ahead. Not enough ops jobs will land you in corporate offices. It's also easier to transfer into ops to get your time in there (you'll need it) after you've shown some promise in non-transportation related departments.
By planning or accident, if you're not shooting to stay at front-line levels or make executive rank, you'll probably be somewhere in the middle. Just like any corporation, opportunities abound for a variety of professions. By trade, I'm an engineer. I was hired in to a class one to do technical engineering. My own career goals aside, opportunities existed for me to move through a variety of departments with that background.
Lastly, if you're asking these questions, you obviously like railroading. It's like the sea or the Profession of Arms--you're born to it, and love it or hate it. I never found people who "kind of" loved railroading. This is a two-edged sword. If interviewers perceive you to be an "FRN," you won't get a call-back. But I had a different Class I offer me a position advertised as requiring a PhD because they knew that I could mostly do the technical crap, but they'd NEVER find a PhD who understood railroading as well as I did (scary thought...).
What am I doing now? Another option. I didn't like my promotion opportunities as a new management trainee in the Class I environment, so I went elsewhere to build my resume. You can do this by working in other transportation firms, or you can go into unrelated industries or firms known for high-performing talent (like GE or Procter & Gamble). You could also join ROTC and do a 4-year stint as a military officer (I take exception to the earlier opinions voiced in this thread regarding commissioned service). This worked for David Gunn; he finished a 4-year stint in the Navy, got an MBA, and pulled into Santa Fe as an exec before he was 30 (which probably sounds forever and a day away for you
). Suffice it to say, after a while here, I'll get my MBA--not necessarily to learn things, but because people want to see that I have it--and I'll see what opportunities exist in railroad management. Maybe I'll have to make the hard choice between a short-line holding company and a Class I, but I'll have the luxury of being viewed as something better than just more fodder for the cannon.
If you're really interested in a focused degree, look at a BSBA in Logistics. Good schools include Penn State, Michigan State, Ohio State, and I think Kentucky. You need to be aware that almost all logistics classes are focused on the shipper's perspective. The faculty usually don't know anything about the gory details of operating a transportation firm, and they always assume students will step into the role of buying transportation, not selling it.
I'd suggest an Industrial Engineering, Electrical Engineering or Mechanical Engineeering degree if you can do it. You can get hired into almost any kind of management trainee job--in any industry--if you do your time getting the technical degree. And LEARN TO WRITE WELL!!! I can't overemphasis this. I have the job I do now because I can communicate well--plenty of others could do the technical and leadership parts.
Grades? Don't ever assume that it's worth slacking off. If you can't make maximum learning your priority while in school, consider doing 2-4 years in the military first. This is NEVER bad for your resume. But a diatribe on getting through college doesn't really fit this forum....
I'll conclude by saying that railroading is GREAT! It's due for a leadership change just because of the age of most execs. It can be one of just a few industries you make a career in yourself. But while you know that you want to work with railroads, by the time you finish college, you may decide that some department other than ops is far more your talent and that that's where you'd like to start. Don't let the cynical old dudes get you down. Someone has to run the business so they can run trains, and odds are good they still like railroading despite all the crap!
Speaking of crap, was anything I said here full of it? Anyone? My last reality check bounced....
RCHO22, you need to ask yourself what it is you want out of railroad management. Are you looking to get into middle management and stay there? Be a front-line supervisor? Work your way up to executive management?
On education, the best advice I can give you is 1) finish a degree fairly promptly--don't change majors 30 times because you can usually get a Master's in something you like better for less effort; and 2) get the hardest degree you can possibly stand. Whether you want to be technical or a business guy, better to put the effort into, say, an engineering degree than a business degree if you've got the ability to finish it (before you flame me, this is not a dig at anyone who didn't major in engineering).
As to whether you need education, earlier posts are spot on when they talk about the glass ceiling for those without degrees. Ultimately, there's also a glass ceiling for people who only have a BS or BA and don't have graduate or professional education.
If you want to stay at the first-line supervisory level, I think the advice to start out in a craft or operating position is excellent advice. Even if you do know your stuff, operating people won't believe it if you didn't earn it the hard way. But, after working with cynical 20- and 30-year veterans, I found that all of them appreciated when I respected their knowledge and experience. It's the difference between keeping your mouth shut and the green ATM who told railroaders how to couple a standing cut. Your job as a manager isn't to tell them how to do the job--it's to make sure they can get it done.
If you're interested in executive ranks, you will NEED the MBA. It's a union card, just like joining UTU. You will also NOT want to hire in as a Trainmaster or yardmaster. Very few of the executives come out of the Operating Dept., even if it's the largest. Some come from legal, finance, marketing--you name it. What you've heard about horror stories in ops are usually true. So, you can get into middle management, but you probably won't reach the top. I knew many brilliant railroaders who couldn't even make Terminal Super after 15 or 20 years in ops. Part of that is because you must go to the headquarters to get ahead. Not enough ops jobs will land you in corporate offices. It's also easier to transfer into ops to get your time in there (you'll need it) after you've shown some promise in non-transportation related departments.
By planning or accident, if you're not shooting to stay at front-line levels or make executive rank, you'll probably be somewhere in the middle. Just like any corporation, opportunities abound for a variety of professions. By trade, I'm an engineer. I was hired in to a class one to do technical engineering. My own career goals aside, opportunities existed for me to move through a variety of departments with that background.
Lastly, if you're asking these questions, you obviously like railroading. It's like the sea or the Profession of Arms--you're born to it, and love it or hate it. I never found people who "kind of" loved railroading. This is a two-edged sword. If interviewers perceive you to be an "FRN," you won't get a call-back. But I had a different Class I offer me a position advertised as requiring a PhD because they knew that I could mostly do the technical crap, but they'd NEVER find a PhD who understood railroading as well as I did (scary thought...).
What am I doing now? Another option. I didn't like my promotion opportunities as a new management trainee in the Class I environment, so I went elsewhere to build my resume. You can do this by working in other transportation firms, or you can go into unrelated industries or firms known for high-performing talent (like GE or Procter & Gamble). You could also join ROTC and do a 4-year stint as a military officer (I take exception to the earlier opinions voiced in this thread regarding commissioned service). This worked for David Gunn; he finished a 4-year stint in the Navy, got an MBA, and pulled into Santa Fe as an exec before he was 30 (which probably sounds forever and a day away for you
). Suffice it to say, after a while here, I'll get my MBA--not necessarily to learn things, but because people want to see that I have it--and I'll see what opportunities exist in railroad management. Maybe I'll have to make the hard choice between a short-line holding company and a Class I, but I'll have the luxury of being viewed as something better than just more fodder for the cannon.If you're really interested in a focused degree, look at a BSBA in Logistics. Good schools include Penn State, Michigan State, Ohio State, and I think Kentucky. You need to be aware that almost all logistics classes are focused on the shipper's perspective. The faculty usually don't know anything about the gory details of operating a transportation firm, and they always assume students will step into the role of buying transportation, not selling it.
I'd suggest an Industrial Engineering, Electrical Engineering or Mechanical Engineeering degree if you can do it. You can get hired into almost any kind of management trainee job--in any industry--if you do your time getting the technical degree. And LEARN TO WRITE WELL!!! I can't overemphasis this. I have the job I do now because I can communicate well--plenty of others could do the technical and leadership parts.
Grades? Don't ever assume that it's worth slacking off. If you can't make maximum learning your priority while in school, consider doing 2-4 years in the military first. This is NEVER bad for your resume. But a diatribe on getting through college doesn't really fit this forum....
I'll conclude by saying that railroading is GREAT! It's due for a leadership change just because of the age of most execs. It can be one of just a few industries you make a career in yourself. But while you know that you want to work with railroads, by the time you finish college, you may decide that some department other than ops is far more your talent and that that's where you'd like to start. Don't let the cynical old dudes get you down. Someone has to run the business so they can run trains, and odds are good they still like railroading despite all the crap!
Speaking of crap, was anything I said here full of it? Anyone? My last reality check bounced....
by bigrig
slowfreight. I have been reading this thread and your article was exactly what I wanted to hear from doing so. I am currently preparing to go into CSX operations (transportation) management training program in January. I was wondering what you meant by...
If interviewers perceive you to be an "FRN," you won't get a call-back
Any help?
If interviewers perceive you to be an "FRN," you won't get a call-back
Any help?
by SlowFreight
Um, ah, er, well....
...It means, uh, "!@#$ing rail nut."
...but don't tell your mother (or Otto) that you heard it here...
With most railroaders it's okay to like railroading, but if you're just a "train nut," you'll be seen as about as rational as a typical Packers fan in Lambeau field (don't flame THAT, either!). I hate to admit it here, but I've almost always gotten along with railroaders, but almost never with railfans. I don't know how to really describe the difference, except maybe that your typical railfan will cry over every piece of rolling stock that goes to the torch, but a railroader will concece "yep, that sucker was worn out." Bad analogy, but it's probably better suited to another thread.
Anyway, thanks fer thuh vilkommen, gents. Now I just need to figure out what to do with my OWN advice...
...It means, uh, "!@#$ing rail nut."
...but don't tell your mother (or Otto) that you heard it here...
With most railroaders it's okay to like railroading, but if you're just a "train nut," you'll be seen as about as rational as a typical Packers fan in Lambeau field (don't flame THAT, either!). I hate to admit it here, but I've almost always gotten along with railroaders, but almost never with railfans. I don't know how to really describe the difference, except maybe that your typical railfan will cry over every piece of rolling stock that goes to the torch, but a railroader will concece "yep, that sucker was worn out." Bad analogy, but it's probably better suited to another thread.
Anyway, thanks fer thuh vilkommen, gents. Now I just need to figure out what to do with my OWN advice...
by Cowford
Bigrig - there are three perceived levels of railfans in the industry:
FRN - previously mentioned general term
Foamer - one that foams at the mouth when they see a train
FLM - the worst... Fan Living with Mother
There are quite a few FRNs in the industry, including CSX. I can't tell you how many times the jokes fly around about it- typically in good fun. Don't worry- you can keep it quiest and get away with your secret even with train photos, maps, models, etc in your office- as long as it's not excessive... you work for a railroad, right?
FRN - previously mentioned general term
Foamer - one that foams at the mouth when they see a train
FLM - the worst... Fan Living with Mother
There are quite a few FRNs in the industry, including CSX. I can't tell you how many times the jokes fly around about it- typically in good fun. Don't worry- you can keep it quiest and get away with your secret even with train photos, maps, models, etc in your office- as long as it's not excessive... you work for a railroad, right?
by Delta
SlowFreight wrote:I've also worked in a few other industries before and since, so I know how business is done in a few places outside railroading.Oh my God, say it isn't so. I've heard that is impossible.
Seriously, that was quite an excellent post, SlowFreight, even to this semi-cynical not-quite-veteran operating employee. Two thumbs up.