• Amtrak to spin off NE Corridor?

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:But IF anything is to come of such, it would be a "back to the future" move. When Amtrak acquired the Corridor from Conrail (as distinct from the Penn Central Estate) during 1976, it was organized with all operating and administrative functions separate, yet paralleling, 'National" Amtrak. It even had its own CEO, the first appointment was Charles E Bertrand, formerly of Reading Co and unemployed effective C-Day (4-1-76).

If one could ever envision a corporate environment made to order for bickering, that had to be it.
Pardon me for quoting my own earlier post.

Spinning off (yes, that is an appropriate term) the Corridor to a subsidiary is only going to create a duplication of every activity needed to run a railroad imaginable. That's how it was on C-Day, there was Labor Relations-NEC, there was Payroll Accounting-NEC, there was Operations-NEC and National Operations.

Needless to say, the folks at 1617JFK and 400NCap gathered together, even if only in spirit, to sing a daily chorus of "We've been working on the railroad'.......yep....and OJ didn't do it.

At the moment, several here have offered an opinion that this spin off is merely a percussor to "spinning off' the trains to other concerns, such as private sector concerns holding "cost plus' contracts to operate such.

It will be a nightmare, and give those who simply see no need for intercity passenger service - Corridor notwwithstanding - more "ammo' for their position,

OH let me translate my acroynyms 'for those "tuning in late', i.e. those not in the industry 25 years ago. 1617JFK=1617 John F Kennedy Blvd, Suburban Station Building, Phila NEC-HQ. 400NCap=400 N Capitol Street, Wash, National HQ (the HQ after 955 Elephant was vacated and 60 Mass was occupied)

  by metrarider
 
The current situation with Amtrak stems from the lack of a dedicated funding source - instead relying on a year to year appropriation, and resulting in it becoming a polical football.

Other successful transportation funding are done at least in large part from dedicated funding sources (like gas taxes or ticket fees).

This is the reason for the failure, not that the federal govmt is somehow incapabale of running it - the blame lies with Congress.

It's time to stop accepting this sorry state of affairs from our elected representatives. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing right, and leaving any entity to limp along for 30+ years is not going to result in any headway being made.

However, those that think State goverments would fare better need a reality check. Several things make this untenable. Not the least of which is the much smaller pool of available money, and the fact that the state lawmakers will likely end up in the same situation, only multiplied by 8. No, what's needed is for congress to authorise some sort of multi year funding, and to decide what federal involvement will look like, and not simply say "not my problem" and pass the buck to the states.

  by krtaylor
 
A couple of things about my position that I need to clarify.

First off, I do NOT think it's a good idea to break up the NEC. That's stupid. That's the way it was built, true, split between the PRR and NYNH&H, with the NH's tracks further split between electrified and non-electrified sections. After literally a century of talking about it, finally that problem got fixed; the last thing we need is to artificially reinstate it.

Splitting off the Empire routes makes more sense, because AFAIK they're operationally totally different. I mean, they have to use completely different equipment because the electrification is third-rail or absent.

It might make logical sense to consider the Keystone corridor as part of the NEC, again because it can use more or less the same overhead-electric equipment. I dunno if that's necessary or not, but it's reasonable.

My split-things-up argument applies only to separating the NEC and its direct tributaries, from everything else. Ideally, I'd split up the everything-else too, such as the California services (well, maybe the whole Pacific Coast). The idea would be to isolate the areas of the network that might be self-sustaining, so they won't collapse with the weight of the no-hoper routes.

As far as the infrastructure goes, I am fundamentally opposed to government funding of these sorts of things, precisely because neither the Feds nor the states can be relied upon to come up with the dough on the CONSISTENT, PREDICTABLE, REGULAR basis required for rail operations. With a highway, you can extend it one exit at a time if need be, and it's still useful; not nearly so true with rail service. And the capital operating costs are much greater. If there needs to be a government subsidy, and in some places I can see arguments for one, I'd say it should come only in one of two ways:

1. Eliminate property taxes on railroad property and equipment. Once that's done, you don't have to fight through the budget process every year, just once in a while when some pol casts his beady eye on the tracks.

2. Strict funding on a commission basis, that is, a payment per passenger-mile travelled. You could write this as a multi-year contract which would be legally enforceable. The military does this regularly, for the express reason of making the contracts difficult to cancel; it's good business because it eliminates (well, reduces) some of the budgetary risk for the companies involved, that they normally have to add to the costs when doing business with the government.

Concerning private enterprise, why are we so allergic to it? Private enterprise has always been shown to be both more efficient and provide better service than government-run services. Where private enterprise fails, it is either because there is not sufficient demand for the services, or because the government has been incompetent in setting up the regulatory environment or the incentives. "Give me perverse incentives, and do not be surprised if I act perversely." Hence my suggestion of the simple, straightforward passenger-mile subsidy.

I don't have a position about separating the roadbed from the trains. In theory it sounds like it ought to work, but AFAIK it's never actually worked in the real world. Now, maybe that's because the various governments involved botched things, Britain certainly did. Maybe it's because railways are inherently too complex for the contracts involved to be sensibly written, so as to set up proper incentives and costs. I just don't know. I agree, it seems fishy in the case of the NEC.

As far as duplicating the administrative activities, you're probably right that that's what would happen, but it needn't be that way. In fact, a more logical method would be to combine Amtrak/NEC with the various state operators (NJT, MARC, MBTA, ConnDOT, MetroNorth, and whatever RI and DE chip in) into one operating group. This would be more efficient in many ways, not least buying equipment in bulk. What's wrong with standardizing on the HHP-8, one electric MU, one single-level traincar with alternative commuter and long-haul interiors, one commuter bilevel, the Genesis (OK, with some having the third-rail capability), and of course the Acela Express. One need only look at Southwest to see the advantage of reducing the number of equipment types, and buying new equipment identical and in bulk.

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
The following message by Member John Perkowski was a "work in progress" last evening when the thread was closed for the evening. At his request, I am submitting it here.

AUTHOR: John Perkowski

Lest we forget...

Even with deregulation by 1960, passenger service would have required Federal intervention by the 1970s. The flexibility of the auto and the speed of air combined to make rail "not so wonderful" outside the Northeast. That's the "gut-check" reason we have Amtrak.

To spin off the NEC properly means:

1) Re-capitalizing the real property. Concrete weathers, roadbeds need refurbishing, and in many cases, for better speed, the routes need straightening (within limits of topography). It's that simple.

2) Recapitalizing the rolling stock. OK, Acela replaced Metroliner. Got it. Note the life span of a passenger rail car right now seems to be about 35 years. GUESS WHAT: Amfleet is coming due!!!

3) Establishing modern amenities and services, from the reservation system to on-board Wi-Fi, which make the BUSINESS TRAVELLER WANT TO RIDE. He/she has a choice. Not all of them, by any means choose rail.

4) As Ms Bly has noted elsewhere, PRICE the TICKET so a business traveller can justify Amtrak vice air. The rational businessman chooses lowest cost/least time solutions. Whoever has his name on the locomotive has to operate with this as a given.

Of course, given that I hear such resounding support for the rest of the National System from the NEC folks here, I'm tempted to say: Let the NEC states form their own Interstate Compact to run passenger service, and we'll shut the rest down.

John Perkowski

  by JoeG
 
Mr Taylor says:
Private enterprise has always been shown to be both more efficient and provide better service than government-run services.
While likely this thought is presented as a premise, I find it to be a dubious conclusion. In the railroad business, for example, Metro North and NJ Transit provide commuter service better than their predecessor private railroads did. Probably the same for Metra, but I defer to our Chicago-area Members there.
Since passenger rail service always loses money, and therefore requires subsidies, it is a good candidate for government operation. If it were to be privatized, the government would have to increase its subsidies enough to provide a profit to the private operators. Why is this a good idea?
Col P--
I absolutely agree with your post, the one that GBN re-instated. My only quibble is that I believe that most of us NEC folk absolutely support the need for and utility of a national Amtrak route network, including sleepers and diners, and would like to see the network expanded and its train frequencies increased.

  by John_Perkowski
 
I'm at Phoenix Sky Harbor right now, waiting for the next leg of the trip.

GBN: THANK YOU!!!!!

Mr JoeG: I will gladly take the support of those Corridor folk who call for a National System. In return, I will offer my support from Flyover Country.

I'm just frustrated that some of our Members forget the rest of the system in their desire to have NEC or NY State service. To them I say: What goes around, comes around.

John Perkowski

  by krtaylor
 
I did not say that private enterprise was always more successful than a government operation. I said that it was more efficient. Obviously, a government operation that spends ten times as much has a good chance of having better success.

However, it's not accurate to say that MetroNorth is better than the previous private operators. For sure, it's better than its immediate predecessor, the Penn Central, which we all agree was totally incompetent in the area of passenger service. However, I don't think you can argue that MN is better than the old New Haven, NYC and PRR when the electrification was new - because they did a much more professional job of running things. And why? Because they could make money at it.
JoeG wrote: Since passenger rail service always loses money, and therefore requires subsidies, it is a good candidate for government operation.
To bring such premise into any discussion, I believe defeats the goals of economic and efficient passenger train operation. I do not agree with the concept that passenger rail can survive only as a government protectorate and cannot be a profit-making enterprise. Such has not been tried in decades, and certainly not since high oil prices. I see no reason why a properly managed, properly advertised, intelligently operated, sufficiently frequent rail service in the right place cannot pay its way.

As far as the need for and utility of a national rail network, what is the argument for that? If not enough people use it to make it worthwhile, then by definition there is no need for it except as a sop to the unions and politicians. If it is needed, and is well run, it will be used; if not, then not. The same is true with highways, remember the Bud Schuster boondoggle in West Virginia? Highways are usually used; but not that one, because it was built from nowhere to nowhere. That doesn't prove that highways are all useless, just that that one was; but if there were more of those around, the argument could and would be made. Little-used, money-using rail services gives ammunition to those who feel that passenger trains have no place at all in modern life, which is not helpful.

  by JoeG
 
I say that passenger rail always loses money, not as a premise but as a matter of empirical observation. Give me a counter-example of regularly scheduled, common-carrier passenger rail that makes a profit if you include its capital costs.
Did American rail passenger service make money? I think it did in the nineteenth century, but it's not clear if it did in the last hundred years. I have done some research and so far I can't say. I think that it may have made a little money till the 1929 Depression, but I think that railroads accepted breaking even on passenger service or relatively small losses for two reasons. One is that with freight rates regulated, regulators expected freight rates to subsidize passenger losses, and railroads didn't want to have disgruntled passengers for fear of antagonizing regulators. The other is that the railroads looked at passenger service as advertising, both as general public relations and as advertising directed at shippers who probably rode the railroad as passengers. Don't forget, "back in the day" travel way much more expensive relative to wages than it is now, and regular rail travelers tended to be either businessmen or well-off people. For a long time, rail fares were around 4 cents per mile for coach, more for Pullman. Thus a trip NY-Chicago ran $40 plus Pullman. In those years, $50 was a pretty good weekly wage, $100 was excellent and $20 was common.
As for commuter service, I think that prosperous railroads knew they had to provide it, so tried to do a good job, till the fifties, when their prosperity declined and passenger losses deepened. By the fifties, they had mostly given up on the idea that commuter service could break even. (The C&NW later claimed to make money on commuter service. I think that was only true if capital costs were ignored.) When I was a kid in the fifties, the Lackawanna ran its trains on time and on fast schedules, but there were tons of complaints because their equipment was old and not air conditioned, and the seats were seen as uncomfortable. The New Haven bought some new commuter cars in 1954 but pretty soon stopped maintaining them, Similar for the Central and Pennsy. So its been at least 50 years since we can say that railroads ran decent commuter service.

  by krtaylor
 
JoeG wrote:So its been at least 50 years since we can say that railroads ran decent commuter service.
Agreed.

Two points, though -

1. It's not necessary to include all the capital costs. Of course you have to include some of them, such as necessary new and upgraded equipment, and you have to allow for proper maintenance. But it's not necessary to recover the costs of building the infrastructure in the first place. Mostly it's been there for 100 years. And no matter what maintenance or improvements might be required, it's inconceivable that that would be more expensive than building it all over from scratch.

2. For about three decades or more, spread over the last 50 years, fuel prices have been so cheap as to make rail service uneconomical. That is no longer the case. It is a fundamental change in the surrounding economic climate. When individual transport became cost-competetive with rail transport, in around 1950 or so, but building in that direction from 1930 on, the railroads lost. The balance is now somewhat changing. It's not overwhelming in favor of trains, of course, far from it. But an intelligent railroad can discover certain specific opportunities where it can compete with, and beat, both cars and aircraft. The NEC is the best example of this, but it need not be the only one. What's required is to free it from the bureaucratic governmental mentality, which even the members of this forum complain about.

  by JoeG
 
I can agree with Mr Taylor about capital costs. I lack the accounting vocabulary to make the needed distinctions. The cost of acquiring and grading the ROW is history. Maybe that's in the category of "fully depreciated" or maybe Mr Norman can help me with the right words here. The ROW doesn't have to be re-acquired. I am referring to what has to be spent to get the NEC into Mr Gunn's "state of good repair". There are in some places 60 or more years of deferred maintenance, plus improvements that have to be done to increase capacity. (Don't forget, when NYP was built the Pennsy expected most of its NY commuter traffic to continue to terminate in Jersey City. Enough capacity has to be provided for today's traffic patterns, where this traffic now goes to NYP, plus traffic from unexpected sources such as the former Lackawanna.) I can see no source for the capital to do this maintenance and improvement except the Feds.
I can also agree with Mr Taylor's second point. I would, however, argue that in the case of passenger rail, government bureaucracy isn't nearly as big a problem as is government stinginess, as contrasted to government largesse to airlines. Airlines, as we know, have a total net loss since they have been in existence, and have benefitted from massive government aid that dwarfs anything given to rail transport in the last hundred years.

  by John_Perkowski
 
Am now out of Flyover Country and with my parents in Northern Nevada.

Granted, you said "in the past century." That locks out most of the value of the land grant give-aways.

I suspect the value of the land given the railroads in the 2d half of the 19th Century is enormous, and may even (in constant dollars) dwarf the support to the airlines.

That said, the day when we can have effectively subsidized fuel prices will probably not survive my 16 year old son. We need at the least the skeleton of a national rail passenger system for that day. We will need rail again.

My thoughts.

John Perkowski
JoeG wrote:
<much snippage of good stuff>
Airlines, as we know, have a total net loss since they have been in existence, and have benefitted from massive government aid that dwarfs anything given to rail transport in the last hundred years.

  by JoeG
 
I've actually never known how to evaluate the railroad land grants. On the one hand, as Col P implies, they were a fabulous giveaway. On the other, they could not have been developed without the railroad's presence. However, the Great Northern's success (without landgrants) and the NP's troubles (with landgrants) indicate that they were more a giveaway than a necessity.
Another topic when considering railroad costs and subsidies is railroad real estate taxes. In NY and NJ, at least after WWII, railroad real estate taxes, especially on money-losing passenger tracks and facilities, were punitive. No other transportation form has to contend with analagous taxes. But I once found on the Web a document that indicated that in the 1890s the Pennsy got Jersey City to give it a complete tax exemption. That surprised me, and I have no idea if railroad tax exemptions were common or rare.

  by krtaylor
 
I don't know what railroad taxes are today, but I understand they vary state to state. It would be extremely helpful if the government could declare passenger railroad infrastructure as government property, as highways and airports are, and thus not subject to local property tax. I suspect that would be more valuable than the Amtrak subsidies, and more permanent too.

  by rhallanger
 
John_Perkowski wrote:
rhallanger wrote:I think the NEC should be government supported but by the states, not Fed. It's unfair that California pays for 403(b) trains like the San Diegans (Pacific Surfliners), San Joaquins, and Capitols.
So far as I know, San Diegans were NEVER 403(b) service.

Pacific Surfliners (lineal descendants) may be under 403(b), but San Diegans (at least the first half dozen runs daily or so) never were.

John Perkowski
Yeah, the Pacific Surfliners are now "primarily financed through funds made available by the California State Department of Transportation." (Amtrak Timetable). Thanks for the info re: the San Diegans though.

  by rhallanger
 
JoeG wrote:I've actually never known how to evaluate the railroad land grants. On the one hand, as Col P implies, they were a fabulous giveaway. On the other, they could not have been developed without the railroad's presence. However, the Great Northern's success (without landgrants) and the NP's troubles (with landgrants) indicate that they were more a giveaway than a necessity.
Another topic when considering railroad costs and subsidies is railroad real estate taxes. In NY and NJ, at least after WWII, railroad real estate taxes, especially on money-losing passenger tracks and facilities, were punitive. No other transportation form has to contend with analagous taxes. But I once found on the Web a document that indicated that in the 1890s the Pennsy got Jersey City to give it a complete tax exemption. That surprised me, and I have no idea if railroad tax exemptions were common or rare.
The AAR put out the Railroad's perspective (spin) on the Land Grants. You can read the White Paper on AAR's website. It's titled "Railroad Land Grants - Paid in Full". It's a PDF file. http://www.aar.org/GetFile.asp?File_ID=144
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 11