• Southcoast Rail

  • Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.
Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: sery2831, CRail

  by MBTA3247
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:05 pmWas the South Shore also designed for this, with diesel passenger trains to points south connecting to Red Line at Quincy Center or Braintree instead of direct service to South Station?
No. The T had no plans whatsoever for restoring Old Colony service when the South Shore Extension of the Red Line was built. The third track was retained for serving the few remaining freight customers along the route.
  by wicked
 
Middleborough Line closure between Middleborough and Bridgewater next month, purportedly to work on items related to SCR.
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
MBTA3247 wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:26 pm No. The T had no plans whatsoever for restoring Old Colony service when the South Shore Extension of the Red Line was built. The third track was retained for serving the few remaining freight customers along the route.
That confirms the Quincy bottleneck is because the Old Colony was treated an afterthought for local freight
service.

At least when I-90 was built in 1964, the B&A main line wasn't rationalized to single track.
  by jamoldover
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:08 am At least when I-90 was built in 1964, the B&A main line wasn't rationalized to single track.
No, it was rationalized to two bidirectional tracks from four one-way tracks. The NYC may have been willing to sell the land under the tracks to the Turnpike Authority, but they weren't about to give up what they needed for an active rail line. When the Red Line was built through Quincy, there was no active through rail line - the fire on the Neponset River bridge several years before that had prevented any through traffic (freight or passenger). All you had was a dead-end industrial lead that didn't need more than a single track to be useful. There was no reason (at the time) to consider anything more than that.

Hindsight may be 20/20 - but you have to remember what the conditions were when the MBTA was building the South Shore extention, and what kind of outrage there would have been if they proposed purchasing additional ROW that wouldn't be needed for another 30+ years.
  by OldColonyRailfan
 
They've needed an extra ROW for 30 years. I live on the Kingston line and I can personally tell you that the rush hour outbounds are 10 sometimes even 15+ minutes late because of the bottleneck. Something should've been done 30 years ago.
  by Greg
 
I had a quick question after reading through the thread which I found very interesting.

It appears that part of the ROW has private residences on it south of central Raynham. Will Phase II require eminent domain to restore the line?
  by OldColony
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:08 am
MBTA3247 wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:26 pm No. The T had no plans whatsoever for restoring Old Colony service when the South Shore Extension of the Red Line was built. The third track was retained for serving the few remaining freight customers along the route.
That confirms the Quincy bottleneck is because the Old Colony was treated an afterthought for local freight
service.

At least when I-90 was built in 1964, the B&A main line wasn't rationalized to single track.
Unlike the B&A, there was no freight service south of the Neponset River in Quincy when the Red Line extension was built. The MBTA chose to reserve room for a single track ROW for potential freight, despite the objections of at least one -- a Quincy state representative. In hindsight today, we wish it had been at least a two-track ROW, but it was a very different world in the late 1960s/early '70s, so kudos to the early MBTA and state leaders for their foresight.
  by wicked
 
I know there was much fanfare about restoring Old Colony service in the 1990s, but I’m not sure why planners of that restoration didn’t do a better job of foreseeing the effects of those bottlenecks.
  by MBTA3247
 
Who says they didn't? The problem is, eliminating those bottlenecks would be very expensive, and they couldn't justify that expense back in the '90s when the service had yet to prove itself.
  by diburning
 
Greg wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:22 am I had a quick question after reading through the thread which I found very interesting.

It appears that part of the ROW has private residences on it south of central Raynham. Will Phase II require eminent domain to restore the line?
I don't think so, but some people might suddenly realize that their yard got smaller when they fence it off.
  by Greg
 
Interesting, when you use Google maps on the standard view you can see the tax map breakdown and it appears the ROW is no longer intact at two potential grade crossings and both sides are now private property. It could be a mistake, I was just curious.
  by MBTA F40PH-2C 1050
 
the best idea is to just terminate the Red Line at JFK/UMASS and have the CR take over the current ROW. Keep the stations on the Red line as new CR stops of course, that's they best dream one could ask for, but we all know....just a dream
  by Safetee
 
Way back in the 70s, the whispered thinking at T HQ about the long term of things was, all the CR lines would eventually become transit lines. It was their manifesT desTiny. I wouldn't be surprised if that thinking is still alive and lurking.
  by The EGE
 
From the 1940s to the 1960s, the prevailing thinking was that rapid transit extensions out to Route 128 would replace all but perhaps a few commuter rail corridors. Until midcentury, that tended to be the area of highest commuter ridership, so the expectation was that the extensions would handle most ridership and the terminal park-and-rides would handle the rest. The Oak Grove and Quincy Center extensions were designed during this time - it's why they reduced their mainlines to a single freight track. However, postwar suburban sprawl enabled by the highways plus rapid transit extensions being more difficult/expensive than expected meant this wasn't really workable.

There was a brief period around the early 1970s where commuter rail ridership was bottoming out, Amtrak's survival was uncertain, and the urban core was rather hollowed out - but when urban-core highways had been proven destructive and inefficient. The terminals in particular were a huge cost for the commuter rail system. The most obvious rapid transit extensions (Southwest Corridor, Alewife, Braintree) went forward with redirected highway funds, but no one really knew what to do with the suburbs. That's how you got proposals like the 1972 study to extend rapid transit over existing commuter rail tracks - trying to serve the outer suburbs as cheaply as possible.

From the mid 1970s on, there was an oil crisis, the urban core has recovered, and long suburban car commutes have sucked. There's been a general consensus that commuter rail on the eight major mainlines (Fitchburg, Lowell, Western, Eastern, B&A, Midland, Shore Line, Old Colony) is needed. With few exceptions, service levels and ridership have consistently increased since then (often by a factor of 3 or more), and only a handful of marginal stations have closed.

The current regional rail/electrification movement is a natural extension of this progression. There's a need for greater regional mobility, both suburban and urban, and an increasing recognition that even electric and self-driving cars don't fix the fundamental geometry problems of roads. Electrification makes for quieter, cleaner, faster service that can handle infill stations, and it enables higher-frequency service that has a realistic ability to make transit viable across a wider area than rapid transit can reach.

I don't see deconversion of the Braintree Branch to regional rail as useful, though. It's a corridor that benefits from having rapid transit - high frequency, one-seat ride to the Kendall job center, and easy transfers downtown. While regional rail will be a major improvement and worthwhile investment for the suburbs, it won't be able to match the service quality that a fully enhanced Red Line can achieve on that corridor. (Among other things, there's no one-seat ride to Kendall, and downtown transfers will be less convenient because the NSRL will be deep.) Having an additional 3+ local stops added to all Old Colony trains will also make them slower than they could be with just stops at Braintree, QC, and JFK.

The single-track pinches on the Old Colony mainline are difficult but not infeasible to fix, and they can be done incrementally rather than requiring a single megaproject. First step is to cut-and-cover a second track at Quincy Center to enable meets there. JFK-Savin Hill can be fixed by consolidating the Red Line tracks, Wollaston by narrowing the overbuilt Newport Avenue (or cut-and-cover for the second CR track), etc.
  by wicked
 
MBTA F40PH-2C 1050 wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 2:36 pm the best idea is to just terminate the Red Line at JFK/UMASS and have the CR take over the current ROW. Keep the stations on the Red line as new CR stops of course, that's they best dream one could ask for, but we all know....just a dream
How does that best serve the majority of riders?
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