Illini / Saluki / Memphis

Since every consultancy that performs these studies has to be selected through a competitive and public RFP (or be in violation of Federal contracting laws or have a sole source justification that can be contested), I don't understand how it is that you keep insisting that all these studies are graft.

Any upgrades to existing transportation infrastructure or service and new transportation infrastructure or service has to begin with a study, and its not unreasonable that when studying transportation improvements between two regions that the introduction of rail services be one of those studies.

OK, Mr. Randall W and other parties in interest around here, I dug out my November '64 Guide and I find the unnamed Nashville-Memphis train was carded at 7hr 25min and that The Georgian 6hr 20min Nashville Chattanooga. Do some 2+2 arithmetic and we are looking at 13hr 45min for the 335 highway mile journey with a 5hr drive time. Even with an ever more congested I-24 (can't speak about the segment over the 40), those rail timings are "a bit much".

Why is $500K even being expended on this? No wonder I refer to such as "consultants (regardless how they are selected) feeding at the trough".

RandallW wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:14 am Since every consultancy that performs these studies has to be selected through a competitive and public RFP (or be in violation of Federal contracting laws or have a sole source justification that can be contested), I don't understand how it is that you keep insisting that all these studies are graft.

You have way too much confidence in how things should work, and how they really pan out.

I've written RFP and RFI's and participated in the scoring and selection. For someone wanting an outcome that they've already determined, it's not difficult to tilt the process in a way that ticks all the right boxes for legality/compliance yet still makes it only "competitive" for the people you want selected.

I've worked on quite a few RFPs as well, from both sides - governmental and "vendor". They were all legit. The ones where I was in the decision-making group were decided on the merits after robust discussion, and in one where my company was a respondent, we were a favored vendor but the board ended up cancelling the idea completely and going in a different direction using in-house staff. Maybe your sense of how they work has something to do with the places you've worked. At any rate, I'd say you have way too much pessimism. Certainly they often work well.

A couple times eastbound on I-24 traffic was so bad that I encountered shortly after getting to bottom of Mount Eagle traffic almost stopped. 2:43 to get to I-75. Other times just around the Georgia section of I-24. I would have been better off taking I-65 toward BHM and to ATL.

Why is $500K even being expended on this? No wonder I refer to such as "consultants (regardless how they are selected) feeding at the trough".

There may be 2 news reports from Memphis, Nashville, Chattanooga newspapers generally in support of the study. Remember the Floridian that last ran in 1979. Seems to be some support to begin Nashville-Atlanta, then someday Memphis Nashville or Chattanooga Knoxville Bristol & on into VA. Fourth route mentions Memphis to Carbondale. Not sure how much Biden money was set aside to do these studies. Then someday in 20 years if feasible something could be built. Articles suggest this is first step that must be taken if any future money to build something, It took 20 years to ""study" the Music City Star now WeGo star. May take another 20 years to rebuild line to Clarksville.

Surprised anyone remembers the NC&STL "Memphis Flyer" from 1950's streamlined steam. Any new train would need to use same windy single track route via Bruceton.

IMHO will have better luck getting #576 back into steam. Engine has been torn apart & many components rebuilt or replaced. In the next year rebuilding takes place. Plan is to run train on Nashville & Eastern track to Watertown & back. Beyond Cookeville & Crossville the old TC ROW is gone if you wanted to rebuild it.

Here's an article from a Memphis newspaper noted by Mr. Woodle.

Here is a historical look at a "streamlined service" started "after The War" with 5.5hr service between Memphis and Nashville. The 7.25hr schedule I earlier noted from the '64 Guide was likely lengthened to handle mail and express at a station or two that the streamlined train did not serve.

Why do it appears to be a result of Biden's infrastructure law money. $8.1 Billion to 10 projects around the country. Another 70 projects for study & development work. Chicago-Peoria, Chicago- Quad Cities. New Orleans to Mobile.

Not sure if Railroad Net has a news item section that could pick up on some of these projects.

Getting back to Nashville & Northwestern has an interesting history of it's own dating back to 1860 & Civil War days. Later bought by NC&STL. A direct Memphis to Nashville route was & still isn't built. So the "Memphis Flyer" you mention always had an indirect route meeting with 2 other trains in Bruceton. The "main line" continued northwest to Union City or Hickman Ky. Never made it to St Louis.

Yep. I'd wondered whether there should be a single topic on the new grants.

Setting aside the 10 major projects, it appears that each of 70 projects got $500,000 for planning. In some ways, this is strange. Does it take the same planning amount to advance the 700-mile North Coast Hiawatha and the 24-mile extension of a Carl Sandburg train from Quincy, IL to Hannibal, MO? If the latter project could finish their planning for $200,000, could they use the remainder for infrastructure improvements?

A round of planning grants which wasn't planned well.

Thanks for Bruceton info. I had briefly peered at a map yesterday trying to understand where the Memphis-Nashville route was expected to bend, thought not enough time to try to trace rails on google maps.

As an aside, there are a couple things that google maps handles very poorly - rail lines, bike paths and rivers. It's often nearly impossible even to find a river name, something I've wanted to do a number of times when trying to understand developments in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I'll zoom and expand on various parts of the river for 5 or 10 minutes trying to find a stretch that includes the name. And if you ask GMaps for empire builder train, it will provide you with 4 points - the Chicago, Twin Cities, Milwaukee and Columbus, WI stations, and nothing else.

GWoodle wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 10:58 am Getting back to Nashville & Northwestern has an interesting history of it's own dating back to 1860 & Civil War days. Later bought by NC&STL. A direct Memphis to Nashville route was & still isn't built. So the "Memphis Flyer" you mention always had an indirect route meeting with 2 other trains in Bruceton. The "main line" continued northwest to Union City or Hickman Ky. Never made it to St Louis.

The 1962 ride I took and noted earlier in a heavyweight 10--2-1 that had four Sections carved out for a like number of Roomettes originated in Cincinnati as part of the Hummingbird. The Memphis cars were cut, as I recall, at Bowling Green, getting no closer to Nashville than that.

Bruceton I know not; guess I got some sleep.

So this report would fall in line with Mr. Woodle's that there were two separate roads, even if they were both acquired by the NC&STL.

The 1962 ride I took and noted earlier in a heavyweight 10--2-1 that had four Sections carved out for a like number of Roomettes originated in Cincinnati as part of the Hummingbird. The Memphis cars were cut, as I recall, at Bowling Green, getting no closer to Nashville than that.

Your 1962 ride could have been part of Pan American. Train split in Boling Green for the run to Memphis. Route built as Louisville & Memphis completed in 1866. About midway cross Cumberland at Clarksville. Today RJ Corman operates for industrial customers in Clarksville. Clarksville is as close as the line ever gets to Nashville.

McKenzie is a tiny town of 5,529 128 miles from Memphis then another 128 miles to Nashville. Mc Kenzie happens to be where Nashville & Northwestern crossed Louisville & Memphis.

Under NC&STL they had major junction at Bruceton. One line north to Paducah. Second line northwest to Union City or Hickman Ky. Third line thru Jackson to Memphis. Under CSX most of this was abandoned. Windy line runs to McKenzie where it turns south to Memphis. Line seems to be busy with freight connection with UP & others in Memphis. You may think after 100+ years should be a shorter route.

So no wonder a 1947 "City of Memphis" would take 5 hours to run it's route. Drive from Memphis to McKenzie to Nashville takes some 4+ hours. Drive direct on I-40 in 3:30. It would be far cheaper to do Thruway bus.

This seems like a reasonable place to note the dramatic recovery of several Chicago regional services this year.
Oct. 22 vs. 23 with percentage, followed by Oct. 19. Asterisks show services beating 2019 levels.

Illini - 19,300, 30,000 - 55% -- 24,000**
Wolverines - 29,900 - 39,800 - 33% -- 38,700**
Chgo.-St. Louis - 39,900 - 51,900 - 30% -- 50,600**
Illinois Zephyr -11,400 - 12,100 - 6% -- 14,900
Hiawatha - 54,300 - 60,600 - 12% --73,300
Blue Water 15,800 - 15,000 - 5% -- 13,400**
Pere Marquette 7,100 - 7,700 (8%) -- 7,000**

The Hiawatha service hasn't recovered to 2019 levels while the other major services have surpassed those figures. Its fall from 2019 is greater than the combined increase of the others. Though the rate of recovery suggests that the 7-service total will surpass 2019 sometime this fiscal year.

I suspect the Hiawatha route is short enough that many 2019 riders were using it more like commuter service than intercity travel. Its decline is the rise of work-from-home, paralleling Metra results rather than Amtrak results.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 12:26 pm The 1962 ride I took and noted earlier in a heavyweight 10--2-1 that had four Sections carved out for a like number of Roomettes originated in Cincinnati as part of the Hummingbird. The Memphis cars were cut, as I recall, at Bowling Green, getting no closer to Nashville than that.

GWoodle wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:05 pm Your 1962 ride could have been part of Pan American. Train split in Bowling Green for the run to Memphis. Route built as Louisville & Memphis completed in 1866. About midway cross Cumberland at Clarksville.

Mr. Woodle, I distinctly recall that the Cinci-Memphis Pullman line I rode originated as part of the Humming Bird, as I connected from the C&O FFV. The Pan Am "took off" in the morning and to my knowledge, a daylight run to Memphis had been whacked by 1962.

Of interest, the L&N would accept Coach tickets (plus Pullman accommodation charge) to ride Cinci-Memphis. For our youngsters around here, the railroads traditionally had two classes of rail fares - Coach and First Class. Amtrak did away with that fare structure quite early in the game.

It's interesting to me how many of the trains Amtrak inherited (and particularly the ones discontinued since) were long distance. I wonder the degree to which rail companies hadn't figured out their competitive advantage vis-a-vis planes and automobiles. As others here have said, I believe there's a sweet spot in the range of 150-500 miles where speed is reasonable and reliability sufficient.

Also, the network advantages were simply not there in the cluster of different companies.

I'm starting to see a path forward not unlike Conrail, where Amtrak pulls together the outlines of a profitable system to compete with airlines and cars.

ryanwc wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:50 am It's interesting to me how many of the trains Amtrak inherited (and particularly the ones discontinued since) were long distance. I wonder the degree to which rail companies hadn't figured out their competitive advantage vis-a-vis planes and automobiles.

I think it's more that the ICC allowed all but the services that Amtrak inherited to be discontinued by railroads prior to that point than that railroads didn't know which passenger services were the most competitive.