Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

JoeG wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:08 am The work past the tunnel is what, 5 miles of single track railroad on an existing railroad grade? And a presumably small station. for 26 million? Seems outrageous. What am I missing?

Read "The Soprano State" book and learn about the corruption that exists in NJ. Plus we don't know how to make left turns at traffic lights or how to operate gas pumps.

JoeG wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:08 am The work past the tunnel is what, 5 miles of single track railroad on an existing railroad grade? And a presumably small station. for 26 million? Seems outrageous. What am I missing?

The about 4,000 foot long NJ Transit passing siding a bit west of Whitehouse Station, Readington Twp., NJ, was built in 2006 on the existing former CRRNJ which had been a two track main. No bridges, just needed some ballast, track with switch and signal at each end, and it cost $13 million - 16 years ago. In today's dollars that is about $19 million for less than a mile on an existing good condition right of way.

Ken W2KB wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:47 am

JoeG wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:08 am The work past the tunnel is what, 5 miles of single track railroad on an existing railroad grade? And a presumably small station. for 26 million? Seems outrageous. What am I missing?

The about 4,000 foot long NJ Transit passing siding a bit west of Whitehouse Station, Readington Twp., NJ, was built in 2006 on the existing former CRRNJ which had been a two track main. No bridges, just needed some ballast, track with switch and signal at each end, and it cost $13 million - 16 years ago. In today's dollars that is about $19 million for less than a mile on an existing good condition right of way.

I was under the impression that 1 million per mile is generally the price for laying track.
How much would it cost for RJ Corman, or a class 1 to lay one mile?

The $1 million per mile would be for a private railroad to lay track on flat ground. If it needs fills, cuts, bridges, drainage, etc. the cost goes up substantially.

When you make it a government project the costs go up as there are more regulations and hoops to jump through as well as having to pay the prevailing wage rates for the labor on the job, subcontractors, and suppliers providing material.

The original track laid on the extension from Port Morris was done by NJT using in house labor, so perhaps the same will happen once the tunnel work is done.

On the preceeding page where Mr. Volpini reported that the contract for tunnel repairs and 8000ft of track (1.5mi), is that sufficient to rail the distance between the existing end of track and the West end of the tunnel?

Enquiring mind wants to know.

I recently watched a video about the East Side Access project. They had to build a 110 foot long deep underpass under Northern Blvd in Queens. This street has an elevated subway line above it and a subway tunnel under it, the the 110 ft tunnel was deep and expensive. It cost about $97 million! These kinds of challenges were encountered and solved in the subway building era in the 1920s and 1930s. So, complicated but already worked out. Ken's example of the siding on the Raritan Valley line seems like the most egregious, since it had no conflicts or complications. But the costs of these railroad capital projects have grown at a rate vastly greater than that of general inflation. It certainly seems like there must be some corruption involved in these projects but I have no actual knowledge to confirm or deny this idea.

The summary email showed a comment saying that the writer knows NJ commuting...

I've benn a NJ resident most of my life. I am aware you have a decade of experience on me. But I may have a slightly more the about transit needs in this area having commuted and traveled for work throughout the state for many years on both rail and road. My only travel experience on the Lackawanna was in the 50s as a youngster.
All that stated and with the understanding that Amtrak has interest in the line, I do not see the financial viability of this line.


Western NJ, Northeast PA both have great need for this service, both for commuters and to make for a much better tourist experience, and for students. I80 has long been oversaturated, same with the Delaware bridge, often I380. It's not just about central and eastern NJ.

There is a huge drive to get commuters off the highways and out of their home offices. Another reason why this is important. In regards to tourism, this will help the resorts, hotels, tourist sites, etc. attract more people if combined with good shuttle services (perhaps Martz could run them). Also shuttles to corporate sites in NJ.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:32 pm The summary email showed a comment saying that the writer knows NJ commuting...

I've benn a NJ resident most of my life. I am aware you have a decade of experience on me. But I may have a slightly more the about transit needs in this area having commuted and traveled for work throughout the state for many years on both rail and road. My only travel experience on the Lackawanna was in the 50s as a youngster.
All that stated and with the understanding that Amtrak has interest in the line, I do not see the financial viability of this line.


Western NJ, Northeast PA both have great need for this service, both for commuters and to make for a much better tourist experience, and for students. I80 has long been oversaturated, same with the Delaware bridge, often I380. It's not just about central and eastern NJ.

There is a huge drive to get commuters off the highways and out of their home offices. Another reason why this is important. In regards to tourism, this will help the resorts, hotels, tourist sites, etc. attract more people if combined with good shuttle services (perhaps Martz could run them). Also shuttles to corporate sites in NJ.

I agree in principle, but the impact of work from home is now a substantial consideration. Many businesses have announced that they intend to continue work from home after the pandemic ends as it results in greater employee satisfaction due to zero cost and time wasted in commuting, and is far less costly for the business, as office and auxiliary space needs are substantially reduced as average in-office days will be reduced to two or three days a week on average versus the historical five. By way of personal observation of the High Bridge station parking lot in western NJ, two years ago before the pandemic there were 40 or more cars parked there to take the train, since then and currently there are only 9 or 10 cars parked there on workdays. That is a 75% reduction in ridership from High Bridge which is certainly not unique to this station. Certainly some ridership will return with time, especially for those employees with much shorter commutes for whom work from home has fewer time and cost saving advantages, but the need for additional longer commuter service is questionable at best.

Re:
Ken's post,

#1595726 by Ken W2KB
Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:15 am

I agree, and NJT sees everything from a NYC commute concept. Any commute from NE PA is too long. Amtrak's reason to exist is to run between cities. NYC to Scranton makes some sense as long as they don't make a lot of in-between stops. Tryig to use it as a commuter line will kill it. It's just too far. I can't see the Pocono resorts generating much revenue either.

Ken, I'm very familiar with your area having done a lot of work at an insurance company by I-78 over the years. The commute from my home (Southern Monmouth) to my office (Livingston) to Lebanon was tedious at best.

The pandemic has created a lot of problems and also illustrated existing ones. There are piles of reasons people don't want to commute. Sure, in good times it's a pain. Hours out of your day. I learned to live with it and did so for years despite the worse than mediocre LIRR, which averages maybe 30mph on a good day if you are in diesel country, and has numerous track, switch and train breakdowns. Another problem is that when you work in Manhattan, most affordable eateries are long gone - tear down an old building, put up another office building and lose affordable places to eat. When crime became a problem in the passage between Penn and 6th Ave, instead of a rehab, cameras and patrols, they closed it, and the sidewalks were saturated. Some bright idea in MTA and NYC DOT, and the one bus that went to and from Penn got moved some blocks away. Firm I was working for moved its office to White Plains - because that's where the bosses live. Other firms moved offices to Jersey City, Newark, even western NJ, Purchase, etc. So commutes got a lot worse for many, ticket prices went way up, subway got worse and worse - not just the breakdowns and danger, but, for instance, elevators for the IRT at Penn turning into vertically mobile urinals.

People who still have to commute have abandoned the run down, overcrowded commuter trains - if they can, service has been decreased in many cases. But that's left the roads on all sides of NYC far more inundated.

Solutions - a lot more repairs to trains, better and extended routes, hotelling for workers with hybrid, company or public eateries that are affordable, more train capacity (MTA jut proposed REDUCING rush hour service), cleaning up the rot and crime in the subways instead of making excuses.

As to the Cutoff, sure, right now fewer are commuting. But the need is still there. Plus the Amtrak service could be a huge tourism boom. It's not like there aren't places for tourists to go, but if you are a NYC resident, you may well not have a car. And we don't just do what we need today, we look forward.

Does anyone know if the tunnel meets or will be modified to meet plate "H" clearances? It may be that there will never be any auto carriers or double stacks on that track?

Since there are no (like in zero) plans for freight, it's doubtful they will even get plate "F" (17ft vertical) clearance. NJT is running the show here, count on them not spending money for something they not only have no interest in, but actively work to see not happen.

Well if they don’t put up any Catenaries and the tunnel is already tall enough, maybe they could get Plate F. I wouldn’t expect anything more though. Knowing NJT we might be lucky to see any freight trains on this line period.

A big reason the Cutoff was abandoned in the first place by Conrail was the lack of freight, because the Boonton Line's severance by the construction of I80 left no place for the freight east of the Cutoff. These days most east-west freight through New Jersey goes via the Lehigh line which is apparently adequate. And as long as PSR prevails we aren't likely to see an increase in carloadings.

The basic problem with the Cutoff seems to be that it is a straight, level, superbly engineered route from nowhere to nowhere.