Southcoast Rail

Actually, regarding your post, cape cod starts as soon as you are in wareham. I have been on 495/25 regularly and there’s a welcome to cape cod sign which indicates the border there. Also, my question is how come they can’t start the Bourne route now? How come they have to wait for the new station? Also, how many are they building? Not sure if it’s just one east of the secondary/layover interlocking or if it’s actually 2. Hard to figure out based on multiple posts.

The Bourne route can't be started now because MassDOT just finished its feasibility study on it, and while yes they did thankfully recommend the project, it isn't planned to take place until at least after SCR Phase I, also for the BEST possible service many things will need to be build/upgraded on the route, including building a platform on the eastern leg of the Middleborough wye for Middleborough Station, upgraded tracks on the Cape Main Line and Bourne Secondary for higher speeds, and upgrading Wareham Village, Buzzards Bay, and (if service reaches it) Bourne stations to the MBTA Standard full high level 800 foot platforms

CRail wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:16 am Regarding the location of Buzzards Bay, I stand corrected, I've always regarded Cape Cod as beginning at the canal.

Regarding service to it; No, what's mentioned in the study is NOT what I'm talking about, and as I said before it most certainly NOT dependent on SCR Phase 2 as has been suggested here. It is said to commence once the new Middleboro station is in service. You don't have to trust my sources, but there's nothing you can quote to disprove them as a lot goes on that doesn't make the papers.

Well aware a lot goes on in the background, but this one is clear as day. In order to initiate passenger service they need PTC. That is going to be a pricey project. As much as you keep saying the Cape study isn't what you're talking about, it has the costs of the infrastructure upgrades needed to run regular passenger service and it costs just under $70M, of which the bulk is signal and PTC work. We're about 19 months from SCR going live in November 2023, there isn't a design job out yet for this work let alone construction and commissioning.

Even if you shaved the rest of the work out and just did the signals and PTC, the MBTA's own forces and contractors are engaged in ATC/PTC work on the North side and also on SCR, there isn't any workforce capacity to install PTC on the Cape Main until SCR goes live. So I see no way of starting Cape service at the same time as SCR phase I. Not sure what kind of service you've heard that doesn't match Alternative 1 in the Cape study, but a shuttle between Middleboro and Buzzards Bay timed to meet SCR phase I service is basically all it is.

Commuterrail1050 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:58 am Also, my question is how come they can’t start the Bourne route now? How come they have to wait for the new station? Also, how many are they building? Not sure if it’s just one east of the secondary/layover interlocking or if it’s actually 2. Hard to figure out based on multiple posts.

SCR is building the 800' platform on the North leg. The 2nd 400' platform is shown on the Environmental Impact Report but is not in the SCR project to be built yet. It would be built by a different project.

Re-quote of the regulation from this post a page or two back.

49 CFR 236.1005(b)(6) wrote: 236.1005 Requirements for Positive Train Control systems.
(b) PTC system installation -
(6) New rail passenger service. No new intercity or commuter rail passenger service shall commence after December 31, 2020, until a PTC system certified under this subpart has been installed and made operative.

CRail, ask your sources what the plan is for PTC.

There are no plans at the moment for expanded service to either BB or Bourne. Yes, there is a new study, but this is about the 5th study that's been done in the last few decades.

More might be known once the governor releases his proposed bonding bill and/or when MassDOT releases the draft Capital Improvement Plan in the late spring.

The good news is that there's a lot of money available at the moment to do a project like this, which is relatively inexpensive compared to the $$$ the MBTA is always looking for. Really all that is needed now is the political will to move this forward.

They could start service to Buzzards Bay TOMORROW, assuming available trainsets & crew, providing direct 1-seat service or a shuttle service. The Middleborough layover site already exists, I think. The existing Middleborough train station is in-use. All the track to Buzzards Bay has had upgrades for Cape Flyer. PTC is required for > six passenger trains (three round trips) per day. Don't want to start winter service to Bourne until actual demand to Buzzards Bay is determined. Call it a pilot service while SCR is built.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if they started a pilot to Buzzards Bay providing direct service, then when SCR started downgrading Buzzards Bay service to a shuttle, if there would be any hue & cry.

The PTC threshold for grandfathered service on a non-class 1 road for dark territory for 2 passenger RT's / day (4 trains), or if you had a signal ssytem it is 6 passenger RT's / day (12 trains). That is due to the operator being a Class 2/3 railroad.

I'll also point out that even if they wanted to go with just 4 trips (2 round-trips) a day over the existing dark territory they have to petition the FRA and get approval for an MTEA under a Limited Operations exception. There will need to be paperwork filed, updates to the PTCIP, PTCSP, etc. It'll take some time to get that put together and submitted, then reviewed by the FRA. I've been in enough meetings with the FRA about PTC that it's pretty clear they don't want passenger service running without PTC. If they're using MBTA/Keolis equipment/crews on MassDOT property with MassCoastal dispatching it's gonna be a tough sell, I just don't see FRA going for it unless there was an emergency need of some kind. If MBTA/Keolis takes over the dispatching there's no way out of PTC.

Foxboro was started with PTC and SCR won't be turned on without PTC. Unfortunately there are no provisions for "piloting" service in the PTC regulations. FRA would rather new service start under the protection of PTC.

My question is are they building the new platform east of the middleboro secondary/layover yard interlocking? Once this station opens up, what are they going to do with the current middleboro station?

It's in the Cape Rail document. Weird how we end up talking about one project in the thread of the other, albeit related project. The cape project document does not say what they will do with the existing station. Unless they do Cape Rail phase 2 they will need the existing Middleborough station for the Cape Flyer. Perhaps it will be used as a park 'n ride lot?

Technically, Cape Rail is not a new service since it is the same as the existing Cape Flyer. So whatever the present PTC requirements are should carry over.

Let's review. The new Middleborough station is inside the wye between the Cape Main and the Middleborough Secondary. 500 car parking lot in the middle. New driveway, new pedestrian access from the main roadway. Full high side platform for SCR Phase 1 inside the north-west leg. Adjacent, inside the south-west leg, is the proposed half-length high side platform for Cape Rail phase 1 shuttle. Across the parking lot, inside the Cape Main is the proposed "buildable but not designed" high side platform for Cape Rail phase 2 through service to Boston.

If the new Middleboro lot tended to fill up, they could stop at both stations and keep using both lots, for a trifling amount of time and money.

Can't - the old station is not on the SCR line

The current Middleborough station is nothing more than
a canopy & a platform,with nothing else to maintain...
So where's the conflict of 2 stations,one for SCL and one
for BB service ??..If not for bureaucracy ,which granted,
is part and parcel ,commuter rail could be in place & ready to
go as early as January 2023...To Hyannis would take a
lot longer..I live on The Cape,and unless you could get
ALL the towns in on an upgrade to 79MPH from HTC
the investment's not worth it..P&B & Peter Pan,will
be too tough to compete with year round without that,and,I just don't believe
the daily commuter base is here..From my POV ,CR to Hyannis doesn't make sense..
CR to BB has for too long a time..C.2021 ,a town like Wareham has
had the demographic to support it for quite a while,and considering
the village itself, and it's immediate surroundings BB has that same
potential...

And it'll take at least 3 years to support more
than 2-3 trains a day, but those 2 -3 trains from BB
I believe would prove to be worthwhile long term...

Oh, now I understand. Or remember. For some reason I thought the current station was north of the wye. I must have been thinking of where the old town center station was. Silly, because if the current station was north of the wye they wouldn't be building a new one...

BandA wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:57 pm Technically, Cape Rail is not a new service since it is the same as the existing Cape Flyer. So whatever the present PTC requirements are should carry over.

The regulation is "No new intercity or commuter rail passenger service" and not just any passenger service. The Cape Flyer is not either of those. It is a seasonal/charter service, CCRTA "charters" the trains from the MBTA, it is technically a CCRTA service. It is clearly targeted for a weekend/vacation/getaway crowd and not people commuting to work Monday-Friday. If MBTA, or any other operator, initiates new service that can be considered commuter rail then PTC is required - unless you only want to run 4 trips AND the FRA agrees it's ok to do so.

FRA isn't messing around with this in terms of safety, they aren't going to give an easy "out" just because it's expensive. Congress made it a law, and FRA is here to enforce it. There have been too many recent, high-profile loss-of-life accidents that could have been prevented by PTC.