Amtrak Diner and Food Service Discussion

charlesriverbranch wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:53 amHuh? What station operating costs? Most of those stations are unstaffed.

Moreover, the last I heard these trains were selling out. What evidence do you have of low ridership?

Staffing is not the only cost. Amtrak actually owns some properties and has to pay for building upkeep and utilities. The Long Distance trains most certainly are not selling out. Amtrak's strong ridership figures are primarily coming from growth on the NEC and state supported corridors.

Amtrak overall--both in the NEC and on LD trains--has load factors way below what airlines have. I believe the load factor on both is maybe 50-60%.

I find it astonishing that Amtrak hasn't found a way to address this better than it does. Since it's operationally break-even, simply filling a few more seats would be pure profit. There are portions of routes that surely generally have space, such as the Crescent south of Atlanta. Some digital advertising can't fill a few more seats on that route?

No point comparing it to the airlines which are point to point. Maybe to a overseas railroad would be more valid.
But i agree , filling the empties is more profitable than adding capacity.
Overall ridership is more important than load factor. As you add trains , you probably reduce the load factor , simply because some trains will be off peak . But the overall costs per train drop , so if it adds riders , it is more cost effective.

David Benton wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:51 pm No point comparing it to the airlines which are point to point. Maybe to a overseas railroad would be more valid.

Or to a domestic bus line like Greyhound that offers multi-stop service, not just point-to-point like Megabus tends to do.

David Benton wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:51 pmBut i agree , filling the empties is more profitable than adding capacity.
Overall ridership is more important than load factor. As you add trains , you probably reduce the load factor , simply because some trains will be off peak . But the overall costs per train drop , so if it adds riders , it is more cost effective.

Right. An increased advertising budget targeted toward those gaps (small town papers?) would help.

SouthernRailway wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:44 pm Rail Passengers (former NARP) reports that Amtrak is offering Contemporary Dining on all Eastern LD trains starting on October 1.

Excuse my language but F* that feces. I guess I will no longer bother taking the Crescent. What's the point?

Couple of comments to add:

As I've said elsewhere, I have several huge problems with this "upgrade".
Apparently, from reports, the food quality is no worse than what was had, so that's at least a plus.
But, apparently the diner is now more of a "lounge" and most riders are expected to eat in the room.
This reflects the loss of a social atmosphere that I think attracts some riders, such as myself.

Secondly, at least on the LSL and Capitol, if you're a coach passenger this "upgrade" is really a downgrade. You have NO chance of enjoying fare better than the cafe car. I've frequently taken the Crescent to Atlanta, at least once a year for pretty much every year for the last 12. (I think I skipped one year, and some years I did it twice). I often took coach down and sleeper back and the only reason I did so was because I knew as a coach passenger I could get a decent meal. This will dissuade me from doing that in the future. (and more on that in a moment).

For the LSL, I will no longer consider it an option for travel to/from Buffalo if I'm visiting my son in college, nor will I recommend it, for this very reason.

As a sleeper passenger, I often enjoyed the chance to meet folks from sleepers and coach. They had different experiences and I've had wonderful conversations with pretty much everyone. This removes the opportunity to meet with coach passengers and talk over dinner.

As I've said before, with the Crescent at least, one of the big issues I've seen (though it's gotten better) is that very little attempt is often made to market it to coach passengers. Sometimes the diner attendant will come through and take reservations, and sometimes not. More than once, when they've come through I've heard people say, "Oh, I can get better food than the cafe?" They didn't know about the diner until it was brought up. Others have suggested solutions such as offering a coupon or something when you book in order to draw more attention. I think this is a great idea.

In any case, often, and especially when the diner attendant has NOT announced the diner or come through to take reservations, the diner is emptier than it could be. It seems to me, if you have empty seats and people don't know about the service, the solution isn't to cut the service, but to market it better.

And as for load factors, one can't simply point to a number and say, 'see'.
Let me give you an example. We just recently took the Coast Starlight from LAUS to Klamath Falls. (Great trip btw, good food and the diner attendant hustled to keep the diner full, and it showed.)
We booked two bedrooms (so I finally got to try the suite experience!)
Now, if no one booked them north of Klamath Falls, then those two bedrooms had say a 60% occupancy rate (i.e. us). But if someone booked them from say Portland to Seattle, maybe it's 70%.

But, that discounts possibilities such as:
Someone wanted a sleeper from just before Klamath to Seattle. But, since we were using it and there were no other rooms, they didn't book at all. This reflects a lack of capacity, NOT over capacity.

Unfortunately, there's no real simple way to solve this sort of capacity issue. Yes, in theory you could add another sleeper but that might ironically lower your load factor even if it increased your total number of passengers (and possibly revenue).

But, at this point, I have to say, it's likely that east coast sleepers are dead to me.

Greg Moore wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:07 pm In any case, often, and especially when the diner attendant has NOT announced the diner or come through to take reservations, the diner is emptier than it could be. It seems to me, if you have empty seats and people don't know about the service, the solution isn't to cut the service, but to market it better.

Amtrak does not staff the diner well enough to have completely full tables for three to four hours straight. The Viewliners have 12 tables, sitting a table every 5 minutes means it would take an hour to sit all the tables, where they could start re-sitting them as diners finish their meals. Likewise, it is impossible for the chefs to cook all the food at once, the way they sit tables allows the few chefs aboard to cook a table at a time as well. Otherwise, a smoothly operating diner without a reservation system is not going to work.

That's why a full diner can appear empty at times.

What the Eastern US diner is being setup for "airline style" prepackaged Food with little or no onboard heating/prep before serving.
This can range from horrid to barely acceptable depending on the Commissary's kitchen to "make it right"every time!
Even Chefs have bad days from time to time.

The only exception to this is Auto train,retaining fresh cooking for the sleeper passengers,the"pre packaged" Cross country cafe/lounge
for the coach passengers,a la "Silver Starvation" style.
Lets hope they don't mess with the Silver Meteor Diner.

I find meals in first class on American Airlines to be sometimes really good (and good at a minimum). Always served on china and always with a choice of hot entrees.

This is why I am so perplexed at Amtrak’s choice to offer meals in boxes: it can easily do so much better with food prepared elsewhere and loaded onboard to be reheated. Amtrak, just give us what airlines do and I’ll be happy.

SouthernRailway wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:30 am This is why I am so perplexed at Amtrak’s choice to offer meals in boxes: it can easily do so much better with food prepared elsewhere and loaded onboard to be reheated. Amtrak, just give us what airlines do and I’ll be happy.

Dinner (pork loin) and Breakfast (quiche) on VIA’s Ocean…..prepared by an airline caterer then reheated onboard in a convection oven (not microwave). It can be done and very good!






And note (bottom of menu) Coach passengers can eat in the diner for a fixed price of $19 (dinner) or breakfast for $12.

SouthernRailway wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:30 am I find meals in first class on American Airlines to be sometimes really good (and good at a minimum). Always served on china and always with a choice of hot entrees.

This is why I am so perplexed at Amtrak’s choice to offer meals in boxes: it can easily do so much better with food prepared elsewhere and loaded onboard to be reheated. Amtrak, just give us what airlines do and I’ll be happy.

Acela first class works nicely - if they just emulated that with the exact same rotating meal pool for sleeper passengers that would probably be sufficient.

NS VIA FAN wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:55 am

Dinner (pork loin) and Breakfast (quiche) on VIA’s Ocean…..prepared by an airline caterer then reheated onboard in a convection oven (not microwave). It can be done and very good!

Which is why I have a hard time believing that Amtrak is actually trying to do anything other than drive away customers with this:

Greg Moore wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:07 pm Couple of comments to add:

As I've said elsewhere, I have several huge problems with this "upgrade".
Apparently, from reports, the food quality is no worse than what was had, so that's at least a plus.

I beg to differ. Having tried both pre and post contemporary dining food offerings, I think the latter is clearly worse than the former! It's the difference between going out to a mid-range restaurant chain like, say, Houlihans vs warming up a Marie Callender's frozen dinner in the microwave. At least when I have a microwavable dinner at home, I can put it on an actual plate and use real utensils!

The "contemporary dining" crap offered by Anderson's Amtrak is a disgrace. How can anyone who knows about passenger service have a positive opinion about this junk? Hard boiled eggs in a plastic wrapper? Are you kidding? The crap they're offering is stuff that should be complimentary in first class on a corridor train, not the meal on a long distance train. Amtrak's comments on the recent Wall Street Journal report regarding the short haul service they want to focus on says it all. If Georgia wanted the service talked about in that report, Georgia would have it. It doesn't have to come at the sacrifice of good long distance service, which includes dining service. What you have running Amtrak today is either incompetence or intentional ruination of long distance service in the United States.

The "contemporary dining" crap offered by Anderson's Amtrak is a disgrace. How can anyone who knows about passenger service have a positive opinion about this junk? Hard boiled eggs in a plastic wrapper? Are you kidding? The crap they're offering is stuff that should be complimentary in first class on a corridor train, not the meal on a long distance train. Amtrak's comments on the recent Wall Street Journal report regarding the short haul service they want to focus on says it all. If Georgia wanted the service talked about in that report, Georgia would have it. It doesn't have to come at the sacrifice of good long distance service, which includes dining service. What you have running Amtrak today is either incompetence or intentional ruination of long distance service in the United States.