Amtrak: Operating Deficit, Government Operation, etc.

bdawe wrote:O'toole maintains a streamliner-age nostalgia blog. His fondness for historic passenger transportation is geniune. He's just convinced himself that trains are obsolete https://streamlinermemories.info/,

Oh, that’s his blog? Interesting, and a good source of information.

As for his beliefs, I’m not even convinced that a solid diner is obsolete in North American service, let alone sleeper cars and overnight service.

Overnight Service isn't obsolete in other large countries such as China and India, it's absolutely not obsolete in America.

Another 13% knocked off the operating deficit. Would have been far more without two major derailments. Per Bloomberg.

All of these improvements are happening prior to deployment of the new Avelia Liberty trainsets.

At the risk of life and limb, I wonder how close they would be to break even (although, of course, not counting depreciation makes things so much easier) if they eliminated traditional dining car service across the system.

While my reaction to Mr. O'Keefe's immediate is that Mr. Anderson is doing his job and the results are beginning to show, others evidently hold differing views - including this Railway Age columnist:

Open Content:

https://railwayage.com/passenger/interc ... l-records/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fair Use:

Editor’s Notes (translating much of the euphemistic, corporate-speak nonsense language in Amtrak’s press release):

Another possible cost reduction would be to eliminate baggage handling. Maybe even prohibit any baggage. The airlines could do this, too. Reduce the weight load, eliminate the staffing. Amtrak could even take out the seats, offering standing room only, resulting in increased capacity and easier cleaning at terminals. But... might the customers react negatively to the experience? Of course. Amenities are important. We aren't dealing with captive customers who have no other choice. As the airlines tell us every day, "We know you have a choice when traveling, and we appreciate that you chose..." Amtrak is a choice, too. Peeling away the amenities, the "comfort" features, that contribute to the experience, diminish the experience. The railroads did that abundantly in the fifties with great success, driving away passengers. Eliminating full food service across the system would produce short-term cost savings, but long-term customer dissatisfaction and defection.

The Silver Star would appear to be evidence to the contrary. I don’t actually believe that break even food and beverage service is possible or desirable. But it seems clear that the traditional dining car is a money pit. Looking for new (and less expensive) ways is a good thing. Some won’t work, some will. Some older ways are better, some aren’t. Trying to maintain all 1950’s practices permanently, though, isn’t likely to end in a good place.

I am surprised they don't charge for baggage. And airlines have a tax on tickets. Why not Amtrak?

Okay, go ahead and fire away!

Station Aficionado wrote:The Silver Star would appear to be evidence to the contrary. I don’t actually believe that break even food and beverage service is possible or desirable. But it seems clear that the traditional dining car is a money pit. Looking for new (and less expensive) ways is a good thing. Some won’t work, some will. Some older ways are better, some aren’t. Trying to maintain all 1950’s practices permanently, though, isn’t likely to end in a good place.

The railroads knew that dining cars were a money pit long before Amtrak came along. They saw them as an amenity that attracted more passengers, though. Then along came Southern Pacific in the late 60s. And here we are: déjà vu. Making long distance passenger train travel so lousy that numbers of passengers decline. That's the current plan, isn't it?

Ok, Stepping out of the box a bit with a hypothetical; Would eliminating all long distance trains and keeping only the NEC and state sponsored regional services make Amtrak "profitable"?

J. Lang

As far as I know, Amtrak is supposed to be a National Passenger Railroad System, not a collection of fragments of short, uncoordinated trains. To simply chop a system to pieces, and cut your way to deficit free status is easy: keeping and expanding a true national system take a whole lot more brain power, conviction, courage and political savvy then is existent in the current Amtrak senior management.

The railroads knew that dining cars were a money pit long before Amtrak came along. They saw them as an amenity that attracted more passengers, though. Then along came Southern Pacific in the late 60s. And here we are: déjà vu. Making long distance passenger train travel so lousy that numbers of passengers decline. That's the current plan, isn't it?

True, but were they not looking at attracting business travel, particularly travel by their freight customers? They has a business reason to eat the cost that may not exist today.

I’m not sure how important dining service is to the modern train traveling public as compared to how important it is to the railfan community. Most LD passengers travel in coach and, at least in my experience, few coach passengers eat in the diner. LD ridership was indeed down in FY18. How much of that was due to fewer sleeper passengers unhappy with the dining service vs. the reasons Amtrak gives—weather, delays, annulled trains—vs. the decline just being statistical noise? I don’t know. We’ll need some more ridership numbers to try to tease that out.

Let's be honest. Just what perks does current Amtrak passenger service provide. On time service? Rarely. Clean trains, especially windows? Occasionally. Functioning clean rest rooms? Sometimes. Convenient passenger loading with baggage etc? Not many examples in my life time. Friendly service on and off the trains? It does happen if you're lucky. Inexpensive transport relative to other modes? Not this week.

So how does eliminating and or seriously diminishing the quality of the diners add to the enjoyability of a ride on Amtrak?? In my mind, dining car service was one of the very few remaining Amtrak perks. Eliminating the diners sure as hell won't make Amtrak a shining example of capitalism on the rails. And in the meantime, continuing to squeeze the product quality in order to appeal to the folks who cringe at the suggestion of socialism, is going to result in system bye bye. Why, because with a few exceptions in isolated rural locations, Amtrak just doesn't cut it for 21st century travelers.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:While my reaction to Mr. O'Keefe's immediate is that Mr. Anderson is doing his job and the results are beginning to show, others evidently hold differing views - including this Railway Age columnist:

I felt the reference to Warrington was beneath them. They're equating a very complex non-passenger revenue enhancement effort with effective (if often unpleasant) cost cutting.

Who shot the Amtrak diner? Better food and take out dining options in stations aka "fast casual". Diners were essential, especially in the early years of Amtrak, when station facilities were absolutely decrepit everywhere.

That is no longer the case at all in many places. Amtrak also competes against itself with cheap on-board food offerrings in their wildly sucessful cafe cars which routinely sell out of stock.

gokeefe wrote:I felt the reference to Warrington was beneath them. They're equating a very complex non-passenger revenue enhancement effort with effective (if often unpleasant) cost cutting.

Who shot the Amtrak diner? Better food and take out dining options in stations aka "fast casual". Diners were essential, especially in the early years of Amtrak, when station facilities were absolutely decrepit everywhere.

That is no longer the case at all in many places. Amtrak also competes against itself with cheap on-board food offerrings in their wildly sucessful cafe cars which routinely sell out of stock.

If cafe cars are selling out routinely, that’s a big problem. Amtrak cannot afford to leave cash on the table when it’s a pretty simple matter to order more stock.