• Where should there be frequent corridor service?

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by benboston
 
This is a stretch... but Boston to Halifax
Screen Shot 2018-04-26 at 9.24.42 PM.png
Something like that
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  by mtuandrew
 
benboston wrote:This is a stretch... but Boston to Halifax
Screen Shot 2018-04-26 at 9.24.42 PM.png
Something like that
I admire your effort, but think you missed the point :wink: - we are talking corridors of a few hundred miles, not multi-day thousand-mile journeys that are a three hour flight away. For instance, Halifax-St. John or Boston-Montreal.
  by Arborwayfan
 
I would also enjoy a restored train to Halifax, but I started the thread after reading an angry, anti-rail comment on a newspaper story about passenger service in Maine. The commenter basically said that trains were as out of date as horse-drawn carriages. My first thought was that that is ridiculous, because modern trains are an important part of transportation in many rich countries: Japan, many parts of Western Europe, in some places along the NE Corridor in the US. My next thought, though, was that service between Greenville and Brownville Jct., Maine; Rosedale and Jasonville, Indiana, and a bunch of other small towns with decent roads between them actually IS out of date. Trains' basic advantage is that they can move hundreds of of people simultaneously on private rights-of-way, so that a well-designed and well-signaled and well-operated railroad can carry many more people per hour or per day than the same amount of land used as a road. In the process, that railroad will use less fuel produce fewer deaths and injuries from accidents.* This is a real argument for using existing railroads more intensively and building new ones or rebuilding old ones. It does not make sense from Rosedale to Jasonville, but it does make sense in some places. In those places, trains are not obsolete and nostalgic. They make perfect sense. Also in those places, cars are not unsubsidized money-makers; they are at least partly pains in the neck.

I can make the argument for trains in densely populated areas where many people want to make the same trips. I will still face people who think that the car beat the train (and the bus) in a free competition. They (some of you) say it is natural and obvious that everyone who possibly can drive will drive because that is the best way to go, whereas public transportation can only compete with cars with the help of subsidies, taxes on cars, tolls, etc. But I can honestly point out that cars only got so dominant in the US, even in most big cities, because the various levels of government for almost a century have simply assumed that highways and city streets are necessities that must always be funded (city streets mostly from property taxes, not gas taxes), but that public transportation is up for debate all the time. That is, our governments and our voters have subsidized driving with general revenue without even admitting that we are subsidizing it. Out in the country, or in small towns, on the other hand, the argument stops making sense. Frequent service with trains carrying many people through dense areas can easily use less energy, and (if it prevents highway construction) less land and less money than sending the same people in cars. Maybe even less than using buses. That is where I can argue on efficiency, not on nostalgia. I love a long-distance train ride and fried eggs in a dining car, but I can't really say that keeping one-a-day going on those long, long routes is a great use of money or resources. (OK, if it fits between the freights and doesn't add much cost for signaling, sidings, etc., maybe it's efficient, but for example if 100 people ride Denver-SLC on the CZ one day, that's just two or three minutes of one highway lane with a car every two seconds. Drop in the bucket.) On the other hand, when I tell people in Terre Haute that I am going to drive 1:20 to Effingham and ride the train four hours to Chicago, reading or working along they way, because parking in the Loop is $40 a night and driving there is not the easiest thing in the world, a lot of them nod their heads because they see my point, even though they know I also do it because I like trains.


*OK. There are some other possible advantages. Electric railroads have worked reliably for a century and a quarter. Battery-electric cars and buses still aren't that good, and depend on scarce minerals going into batteries that later become hazardous waste. In some big cities there are railroad rights of way that still exist and can be used to move people without needed to destroy buildings or parks to make more roads. Supposedly, if you have very frequent servcice, street-running trolleys are cheaper over the long term than buses are. But even these advantages depend on high passenger volume, whether carried by very frequent schedules or very large trains or both.
  by Jeff Smith
 
Suburban Station wrote:In Pennsylvania Pittsburgh needs better service but reading-philadelphia would make sense. Perhaps an extension of some keystone service to Williamsport.
Chicago twin cities has to be up there as does houston-san Antonio, sas-austin. New Orleans-houston, chicago-kc, chicago-toronto via Detroit
I like Reading idea... is that track still extant? Not familiar with the various legacy lines I'm afraid.

Related: Scranton currently has Thruway bus service to the NEC, and is often talked about in connection with the Lackawanna Cutoff.
  by ExCon90
 
Yes, the line from Philadelphia to Reading is extant, and quite busy with freight trains. More multiple track would be needed, along with necessary signaling improvements; the service could have been maintained all along, but the local authorities outside the SEPTA area have been, and as far as I know still are, unwilling to find any money to do the necessary. I believe NS has indicated a willingness to allow a passenger operation over that right-of-way if some public authority is willing to provide enough track capacity to avoid interference with freight service. Also, there is no longer a direct route into 30th St. Station, and restoring it would be complicated.
  by STrRedWolf
 
Actually... there's a direct route. I checked Wikimapia. The line connects to the SEPTA Norristown line. The Norristown line has a connecting track to the NEC at LEHIGH just south of the North Philly SEPTA stop. So if you can get two tracks from Norristown up through Reading on the old Reading RR tracks, you'll get to activate old stations (Valley Forge, Pottstown, Reading, Lebanon, Hershey) to Harrisburg, which will require some reworking on CP PAXTON to get a train down to station level (tunnel?). If both are full of freight, go three track Harrisburg to Norristown.
  by rdgrailfan
 
If Amtrak is going for short hop service model then the Hub and Spoke employed by the airlines would work in many states.
In Pennsylvania Hubs would be Philadelphia (plus NEC), Harrisburg, Scranton, Pittsburgh and Eire with interconnecting service between hubs. You could cover a lot of territory. Use the congressional mandated FAA funding model for all "low volume" service areas. Forget the state line issues!
Delaware would be Wilmington and Delmar (Salisbury) or to push a point Cape Charles.
Ohio has plenty in common with PA so an airline person(s) could do this easy!
Establish your own states corridor area, play the game back at the new Boss, it is a battle!

Remember, the New Boss is anticipating individual, uncoordinated attacks that he can fend off easily...Custer did the same thing at little big horn, he anticipated the Indians would attack in small numbers but the Indians decided to attack all at once. Boy he sure guessed wrong!
  by bdawe
 
looking at the North East from 20,000 ft, these sorts of corridors sort of stand out to me for multi-frequency intercity service

Image
  by andrewjw
 
A few notes on your map (and some other recent conversation:
In many parts of the country, sure, go to Amtrak for your shorter-distance services. In the Philly area, there's an existing agency which could easily be expanded to cover shorter (Philly-Reading, Philly-Allentown) runs. They've even served it in the past.

Philly-Harrisburg runs via Reading would be considerably slower than the Keystones, and I'd even suspect NY-Harrisburg via Allentown and Reading to be slower than via Philly and Lancaster. Thus, it would make more sense to focus on where intermediate demand is extant: how much Reading-NY or Allentown-Reading-Harrisburg traffic is there? If these are low, maybe extending NJT to Allentown would be all that is needed.

The Norristown-NEC connection at North Philly would be operationally inconvenient, since it would result in slow moves of long trains across the NEC - the same problem currently exists with northbound CHW trains, but with shorter trains and a higher speed restriction; perhaps compare the Jersey Avenue departures for a similar issue. With bi-modes, it could be run through the Center City tunnel and terminate in 30th St. (If you wanted to go crazy, you could theoretically also do it by restoring track over the Cynwyd Line up to a new connecting point between Ivy Ridge and Manayunk, but that would face considerable community opposition.)

The Allentown-Philly line is not present for most of the section between Quatertown and Bethlehem and would have to be restored.
Last edited by Jeff Smith on Wed May 09, 2018 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total. Reason: Removed quote of immediately preceding post and image.
  by ExCon90
 
STrRedWolf wrote:Actually... there's a direct route. I checked Wikimapia. The line connects to the SEPTA Norristown line. The Norristown line has a connecting track to the NEC at LEHIGH just south of the North Philly SEPTA stop. So if you can get two tracks from Norristown up through Reading on the old Reading RR tracks, you'll get to activate old stations (Valley Forge, Pottstown, Reading, Lebanon, Hershey) to Harrisburg, which will require some reworking on CP PAXTON to get a train down to station level (tunnel?). If both are full of freight, go three track Harrisburg to Norristown.
Didn't even think about that. Actually, if suitable dual-powered locomotives are available, coming from Reading you could go straight through LEHIGH, continue on the former Reading and make the Center City stops, terminating at 30th St. Upper Level, which would be more convenient for passengers than just 30th St. The single-track bridge at Norristown would be a choke point, but it's short. Terminating at 30th St. Upper Level would confine the available tracks to 1, 2, and 5, but they manage things like that every rush hour.
Last edited by ExCon90 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by Mackensen
 
andrewjw wrote:
Philly-Harrisburg runs via Reading would be considerably slower than the Keystones, and I'd even suspect NY-Harrisburg via Allentown and Reading to be slower than via Philly and Lancaster. Thus, it would make more sense to focus on where intermediate demand is extant: how much Reading-NY or Allentown-Reading-Harrisburg traffic is there? If these are low, maybe extending NJT to Allentown would be all that is needed.
I suspect there's not very much through traffic on this route, though absent a formal study who can say. I do think there's untapped demand from the Lehigh Valley to Harrisburg and on to Pittsburgh, and operationally Harrisburg would be a better endpoint than either Allentown or Reading.
  by gprimr1
 
NS has said no to passenger traffic on the Reading line without capacity improvements. It does look like there is a possibility to add a second track in the station area to allow freights to pass a passenger train parked and waiting. Bigger issue I see is that you'd need a place to store the trainsets overnight. If you wanted to add through service, they would DEF have to rebuild that wye, I remember that it had a like 10mph speed limit but I can def see the value of connecting Hershey and Lebanon via rail. Being that it's NS's mainline though, I'm not sure how much of an investment would be required, but it would def be slower.

When I look at rail corridors, think 3-4 hours it the optimal amount of time.
  by benboston
 
Screen Shot 2018-04-29 at 10.42.54 AM.png
Here is a corridor that is in a straight line and this could work a lot better once the New York track upgrades are completed, and if MassDot purchases the inland route some track upgrades could be done to allow for a much shorter time between BOS and BFX.
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  by benboston
 
Also, on the Cascades Route, there should be increased service between SEA and VAC. These are two very large cities who only two round trips per day, I believe that from PDX to VAC they should increase service to once per hour or once every other hour.
  by Hal
 
benboston wrote:Also, on the Cascades Route, there should be increased service between SEA and VAC. These are two very large cities who only two round trips per day, I believe that from PDX to VAC they should increase service to once per hour or once every other hour.
Eh, I've been on that route twice (from SEA to VAC and back, just prior to the 2010 olympics)
It is a bit disconcerting to have spray from ocean waves hitting your train. It's a winding route that's bareley above high tide, with lots of grade crossings to get to the beaches.

It WOULD make a GREAT candidate for a regional trolley / shuttle service.
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