Why does the Auto-Train Service Approach being Profitable?

Arborwayfan wrote:

If Amtrak management is intentionally running the Auto-Train so that it loses money, if it could just as easily be profitable, management should be fired. It's my tax dollars that support it, and public servants should be wise with my money.

I believe Mr. Benton's idea was that when it comes time to say what share of Amtrak's fixed costs get assigned to each train, someone might arrange to assign more to the trains that are almost profitable so that they don't look profitable so no one says sell them. He wasn't saying that anyone intentionally runs the trains in a way that earns less money or costs more to operate.

You (and Mr. Benton) are correct.

However, why should Amtrak be able to switch costs from train to train? Doesn't GAAP accounting have rules that are relevant? Surely freight railroads and airlines follow GAAP accounting and allocate fixed costs according to GAAP. Shouldn't Amtrak? Even if the total "loss" is the same, however the fixed costs are applied, it's important to get a true picture of what on Amtrak performs well and what doesn't.

I'd much rather take my car from somewhere in New England to the other side of DC, where I can then drive the "wide open spaces" south of DC, than need to deal with wall to wall traffic between New England and DC. I've never driven south of DC, or for that matter anywhere on I-95 south of Rhode Island, but I have heard horror stories about NY/NJ traffic.

jcpatten wrote:I'd much rather take my car from somewhere in New England to the other side of DC, where I can then drive the "wide open spaces" south of DC, than need to deal with wall to wall traffic between New England and DC. I've never driven south of DC, or for that matter anywhere on I-95 south of Rhode Island, but I have heard horror stories about NY/NJ traffic.

DC is no treat either, even south of the Beltway past Lorton, but at least such a train would get you past most of the jams.

I’d have to do some research to see whether Amtrak has (or could lease) enough land in the right areas for auto ramps, whether a covered 85’ piggyback car would fit in the North River Tunnels, whether Amtrak and FDNY would allow fueled vehicles through the tunnels (same with Baltimore FD and the B&P Tunnel)... there are a lot of variables that could each sink this idea, least of all a lack of interest on Amtrak’s part.

IF a Superliner doesn't fit,the Tri-racks wont fit. None of the tunnels near NY Penn are large enough for Superliners/Autoracks.
There was a special instuction in the PC NEC ETT that required the draining of gas tanks/remove propane bottles from the train before
entering the north river tubes(south)or East river tubes(north) into NY Penn,FDNY regulations.

To drain all the vehicles tanks for the trip thru NY Penn would create objections by the vehicle owners,that's a non starter from the get-go!

Was thinking 85’ piggyback flats confined to the NEC, but “no flammables in the tunnel” pretty much ends it. Maybe an EWR-BWI “Steel Highway” would have a shot at making money?

Since we're posting fantasies now... (and admit it, we are):
Buy back the Walkway over the Hudson in Poughkeepsie and use that to cross the Hudson for Boston traffic

Taking the AT above DC has been beaten to death for years on this forum. It simply isn't going to happen. Let's not waste any more electrons on it.

mtuandrew wrote:I’d have to do some research to see whether Amtrak has (or could lease) enough land in the right areas for auto ramps, whether a covered 85’ piggyback car would fit in the North River Tunnels, whether Amtrak and FDNY would allow fueled vehicles through the tunnels (same with Baltimore FD and the B&P Tunnel)... there are a lot of variables that could each sink this idea, least of all a lack of interest on Amtrak’s part.

Yet fueled vehicles are allowed in the PANYNJ, TBTA and Baltimore (MDTA) tunnels. If this was the case, the tunnels would be for electric or solar vehicles only and all fueled vehicles would have to cross the Hudson via bridge. The rail tunnels have ventilation shafts like the highway tunnels too.

matthewsaggie wrote:Taking the AT above DC has been beaten to death for years on this forum. It simply isn't going to happen. Let's not waste any more electrons on it.

I agree Northern VA is a good enough location for now and could serve much of the Mid-Atlantic coast well. Of course, private auto transport are available (for those who don't want to drive at all).

MikeinNeb wrote:So somewhat premium fares and full trains? I suspect that's Brightline's hoped for business plan. "British" frequency and occupancy while charging premium prices.

Somewhat? It's got a high end booking of revenue from:

- the "revenue tacked on back" - automobiles and the like.
- passengers packed in SIX Superliner Sleepers plus a custom Deluxe "all bedroom" Superliner Sleeper.
- customer service push to get the incremental sale onboard (be it drinks in the lounge, or other)
- totally different customer service and food ops that attracts return customers and builds a good brand for the auto train.

- What other train in Amtrak's system operates with as many sleeping berths available? NONE!
- What other train in Amtrak's system operates with "Deluxe" Superliner sleepers (all bedrooms on upper level)? NONE! Amtrak wanted this for a specific need for THIS train, much like the Pacific Parlor cars formerly on the Coast Starlight.
- What other train in Amtrak's system operates with "profitable" high end cargo on the rear? NONE! M&E was tried and failed.
- What other LD train has such limited crew bases away from home, over entire journey? NONE!
- What other train had the "sleeper lounge" removed, BUT then returned to service? NONE! Some how some Amtrak exec go it reinstated.

The Auto Train seems to have friends in the accounting department too. I have no evidence they have "friends per say," but it's interesting to see how the total costs to operate this train stack up Would love to see the allocation breakdown.

Conductors and crew change once while enroute. Thus "one away" crew base - shared at best. Compare that to any other long distance train.

I've made several points that LD labor operations/logistics may have to be overhauled if Amtrak wants to continue the penny pushing with this business line. I say that with all due respect though. For LD trains, do what VIA does - switch out the head-end only, and then have "service attendants" with a chief of onboard service traveling end to end. And could the head-end crew be contracted from the freight railroads to put forth a shared cost model. Biggest cost for LD trains when combining different factors - labor. And Amtrak's after the "high cost" to operate LD trains.

LOTS can be learned from the Auto Train's operations!!!!

george matthews wrote:

MikeinNeb wrote:So somewhat premium fares and full trains? I suspect that's Brightline's hoped for business plan. "British" frequency and occupancy while charging premium prices.

What do you mean by "British" frequency? Most routes in Britain have far more trains than the one a day usually found in the US. London to Glasgow on more than one route tends to be about once an hour for most of the day.

But few trains now carry motor vehicles. Only the west of England routes to Plymouth and Penzance do so. That is probably because there is no motorway for the last part of the journey - west of Exeter.

I believe the last Motorail services (the West of England ones) in the UK stopped in 2005. The distances in the UK are minute compared to the US

talltim wrote: I believe the last Motorail services (the West of England ones) in the UK stopped in 2005. The distances in the UK are minute compared to the US

If Wiki can be believed, Motorail ended with the privatization of British Rail in '95. It was then resurrected by First Great Western as an overnight service from London to Penzance in '99, only to be ended again in '05.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorail_(British_Rail" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Yes, I thought First Great Western had continued the service. As I don't drive I was not aware of the change.

Why is it that clearances are available from VA to FL but not to the north? Is this just a function of the tracks being constructed earlier? Did clearances used to be available (Poughkeepsie bridge for example) but weren't being used & were abandoned? Yeah, Autotrain through Penn Station seems unlikely

Why is it that clearances are available from VA to FL but not to the north?

Superliner cars and auto racks won't fit in the tunnels at Baltimore and the Hudson River.

So if you didn't have restrictions in Baltimore you could go right up to NJ or NY, assuming you stayed west of the Hudson, and assuming wanted to go that far.