Cascades 501 Wreck 18 December 17

Backshophoss wrote:Wonder if that's the top of the grade (summit) of the climb from Tacoma or Ft Lewis? And it's on a curve to boot!
This pic is at the extreme mag of a telephoto lens.

So here's a question ... we know from the timetable this section of track is a 79mph max speed, with a 30mph restriction prior to the curve.

Anyone know of a link to a track profile for this section of track? Be interesting to see the elevation changes.

From CBS national news feed,there were only 3 fatal injuries NOT 6 as has been reported earlier,NTSB enroute or on site now.

There is just something weird about this whole accident....I just can’t put my finger on it...

Gentlmen/Gentladies:
Can we please wait for the NTSB? My personal opinion is excessive speed, but I can wait for the official reports.

Backshophoss wrote:From CBS national news feed,there were only 3 fatal injuries NOT 6 as has been reported earlier,NTSB enroute or on site now.

Its been on the front page of most New Zealand news sites. Must be a slow news day . To be fair, early reports seemed to indicate there was a larger , unknown number of fatalities.
I suspect the daily road toll in Washington state is probably higher , and goes unreported.

I don't like to speculate on things that haven't been investigated yet, but this accident has similarities to train 188 in Philly, and even more similar to the derailment of a Spanish high speed train in Galicia some years back which involved Talgo built passenger cars. By looking at the aerial shots of this accident it seems as if the lead unit continued straight right off the embankment onto the road below taking with it what is almost half the consist. the other half continued on the actual curve and piled up on the left side of the trestle with the GE left standing on the rails. Another photo showing the retaining wall and the curve clearly show the speed restriction sign with a restriction to both types of equipment on this line. I am not an expert at investigating, but my opinion is that this was not a derailment that was the result of a train traveling at 35mph or less. For the Charger to travel that distance off the rails and make its final resting place at almost a straight line from where the curve begins would insinuate that the train had to have been traveling at a much higher speed than what is posted. MAS can very well be at higher numbers both before and after the curve, but it is very visible in the photo that there was a speed restriction on that curve which also appears to have a downward profile at the same time that the curve begins making this curve even more challenging. A greater factor may be a perfect storm scenario where a train is operating on the line for the very first time, the use of new equipment in the form of an SC-44 Charger, and operating a relatively light train with two units, one pushing from the rear into a tight curve that is located on a downward slope, with a non-operable PTC in place.

Some folks won't like me saying this, but I also will wonder what factor the Talgo cars combined with a unit pushing from the rear will have on the results of this accident? I have been to Spain many many times and have been on numerous Talgo built passenger cars and one can clearly see the very lightweight construction that were meant to be operated on High speed trains on Spain's broad gauge lines. Eventually, their designs were passed onto the Spanish AVE, and are perfect for high speed lines with their light axle loads and articulated design. The tragic train derailment in Spain illustrated the affects on these cars when the train derails at high speed impacting a permanent structure with a heavier unit pushing at the rear (HS trains in Spain are double ended as is the TGV). A GE P42 is considerably heavier than a power unit on a Spainish AVE, so it makes me wonder what affects the pushing unit had onto the derailing train. My understanding is that in this layout on Amtrak trains, both units would be operating providing HEP and motive power, unless one unit would be used solely for HEP while the other would be used for traction.. Investigators would have to look into if the brakes were even applied or if the engineer placed the train into emergency prior to the curve. My thoughts would be that the lead SC-44 would be equipped with inward facing cameras that would also shed light as to what was going on in the cab. Very sad to see, and I think that speed will end up being the main contributor to this accident.

For what it's worth, I was aboard train 500 this morning, scheduled to be train #2 headed onto the bypass (northbound from Portland to Seattle), and on train 517 shortly afterwards Seattle-Portland.

We held at Olympia/Lacey (a.k.a. "Centennial") as the BNSF dispatcher of course had more important issues to worry about than keeping us on time; later there was discussion that the Fire Chief didn't want us to proceed due to men/equipment near the tracks. We were eventually given the OK to proceed at restricted speed through Nisqually (the junction point with the Seattle Sub and the Lakewood Sub), although that was 1.1 miles from the incident site, and the only "men or equipment" was a trespasser walking his dog on the Lakewood Sub. We continued on the Seattle Sub (the "old" route/BNSF mainline along Puget Sound) to Tacoma; where I then turned around rather than risking missing my return trip from Seattle.

The old depot was quickly reopened, however the station agents did not have any computers set up and was working via telephone. I walked over to the new station and although there appeared to be people inside, all the doors were locked. I did check out the new platform but otherwise just waited. Meanwhile, a southbound Cascades train (503) and the Coast Starlight (11) both made their station stop at the old depot. The Starlight had two Horizon coaches deadheading inbetween the engines and the baggage car; I suspected that Amtrak was going to use that equipment to substitute for trains 511 and 508 between Portland and Eugene, but upon my return to Portland those cars weren't there so they probably continued all the way to L.A. Train 517 came and we left Tacoma just slightly off schedule.

At Union Station, a WSDOT employee was out handing out "swag" - a lanyard/badge, magnet, keychains, so on...when I returned to Union Station, American Red Cross volunteers were there to assist families awaiting their loved ones.

And as I type this...I just got word literally two minutes ago that a well known railfan and transit supporter and his friend were killed aboard train 501.

Re: Speed Limit

There was a 30 MPH permanent speed restriction for the curve. Look at this image to see why:

https://goo.gl/maps/onwMLYw9o2y

As this was an existing branchline with an existing overpass over I-5, with an interchange directly to the northeast, and the fact this is on a slope towards the Nisqually River delta, any attempt to broaden the curve to allow a higher speed would have been significantly more expensive, requiring a brand new overpass over I-5 (anyone who is familiar with I-5 in Tacoma knows that the freeway just to the north of here has been in a perpetual state of construction for the last 20 years, and the stretch through Joint Base Lewis-McChord is now the most congested stretch of I-5 anywhere between Sacramento and the British Columbia border). So to save a couple bucks, Sound Transit/Amtrak/WSDOT chose not to replace the overpass and instead retain the existing track alignment.

Whether speed was a factor, that is up to the NTSB and the various other agencies to determine.

Re: Elevation/Terrain

The elevation at Nisqually, on the BNSF Seattle Sub, is about 90 feet, according to Google Earth. The elevation at the derailment site is about 180 feet. The distance between the two points is about 1.1 miles.

One report (sorry, I forget which) said the GE Genesis on the rear of the train was "idling." (I don't think the weight and speed of these trains would warrant two units for propulsion.) In which case a "push" from the rear (except, perhaps, for the momentum of the heavy locomotive as the train slowed down) was not a factor.

Backshophoss wrote:The Talgo sets are Push-Pull with a NPCU or Talgo cab car on one end,the Charger was on to Break in/crew training before running solo.

Train 501 today (the one that was involved in the incident) had a SC-44 Charger leading, and a P42 trailing.

Train 500, which I was riding, had a F59 leading, a NPCU and a SC-44 trailing. As the train departed Tacoma, the SC-44 was definitely loading, pushing the train forward. No idea if the F59 was loading or not.

Train 503 had an ODOT Talgo trainset with a "Mater" cab car leading, and I don't recall if it had a P42 or a F59 trailing.

Train 502 had either a P42 or F59 leading, and a NPCU (the Seahawks/Operation Lifesaver wrapped unit) trailing.

Train 517 had a NPCU leading, unknown engine trailing.

AP is confirming that the NTSB has pulled the data recorder and that the train was still traveling 80 when it entered the curve:
https://apnews.com/9b4d7dd95c4f4d088479 ... WestRegion

Bella Dinh-Zarr, a National Transportation Safety Board member, said at a Monday night news conference that information from the event data recorder in the rear locomotive showed the train was traveling at 80 mph in a 30 mph zone when it derailed at 7:34 a.m.

This would imply that we now know the technical reasons the train derailed. Now for the investigation to determine the "why" of the "how"...

Egad...so this is another Philly after all.


With the fallout that's heading WSDOT's way, we definitely won't see the re-route active again until PTC is operational.

The same article says there are speed signs 2 miles before the curve, presumably warning of the 30 mph zone at the bridge (although it was not 100% clear about what those signs 2 miles before the bridge said).

It is unfortunate what it is turning out to be, that the train was indeed traveling at a high rate of speed in an area where the speed restriction was at 35MPH. NTSB will look into why the train was at this speed, and if defective equipment contributed to it or if it was due to human error. One things that concerns me is if the crew were possibly still not familiar with this line and if that might have contributed to the crash. While train crews are highly trained and while they receive repeated training through out their carrier, it is still possible that their could be inadequate training when there is a change in the physical characteristics of a line, or in this case, a new routing for an existing train. Eventually we will find out what happened.

I doubt there will be anymore extensions of PTC deadlines after this.