Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

Mr. Amtrakowitz, you have a point regarding non-commercial vehicles, i.e. passenger autos. One of such could conceivably, and now that NJ will soon have parity with contiguous states with fuel tax rates, drive the length of 80 through NJ without stopping, and accordingly contribute nothing to the maintenance of NJ's highways (they are in such great shape, eh!). However, commercial vehicles with Interstate operating authority are required to file Interstate Fuel Tax reports paying tax for the miles they operate within the state, regardless of where they fueled.

So once again, a bus operator with a route of say Monroe County to PABT WILL pay fuel tax for X-ing NJ.

New Jersey is a pass-through state. It is bookended by two major cities (New York to the northeast, and Philadelphia to the southwest). Despite whatever one may believe, New Jersey's economic activity is torn between those two behemoths. NJ's rail services are focused on New York because it has historically been the bigger of the two economic centers. Service into Philadelphia via PATCO and the AC Line pales in comparison to the service into New York via ferry, the North River Tunnels, and PATH.

What all these services have in common is providing access for NJ residents to the economic centers. Access is the name of the game. It may appear that expanding the Lackawanna Cutoff into PA would primarily benefit PA residents by allowing them to bypass NJ directly to NY, but the reality is that the commute from PA to NY will be excruciatingly long with intermediate stops. The only folks who would comfortably benefit are NJ residents. They can access the ski and recreation areas of the PA mountains easier than driving I-80. Speaking of I-80, the cutoff may help reduce the number of cars currently utilizing it, but the law of induced demand so common with highways says otherwise.

Also, on a side note, I have been filling up my car in NJ for about 6 months now. The gas tax differential between PA and NJ is so great that even after tolls, I save a few dollars per tank hopping across the bridge to Burlington.

Mr. R3, your thoughts are noted and respected.

By your reasoning, there would have to be enough Monroe County PA residents working at the various "medicine cabinets" and other industries in Northern NJ in order to justify any extension of the Cutoff beyond the "dormant" eight mile extension planned. I'm pretty sure that PA and NJ have reciprocal Income Tax agreements with one another (i.em you pay your income tax to your resident state even if you work.in the other) so I can't see any Income Tax revenue coming NJ's way. Sales Tax? well such workers will buy their Lunch rail line notwithstanding.

Also on your gas tax observation; "enjoy it while you got it". It sounds like Chris has been raiding the highway fund for whatever. The Hoboken crash (apparently NJT lawfully gets funding from such) has got him on the hot seat for that one.

In the meantime...

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But hey, it lives in HO scale!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROEXyntJvz8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gil, for the record, the governor has expressed his intent to unilaterally (he has the right) rescind tax reciprocity with PA. I hope, not trust, that he has done the math and that there are more people, or at least more wages, earned in Trenton by residents of Bucks County than there are in Philadelphia by residents of Camden County.

There a vast hoards of people who live in Pennsylvania who commute daily by automobile via I-78, I-80 and other roads to jobs in northern and central New Jersey. Virtually no one commutes in the other direction due to the vast differential in cost of living between NJ and PA. I even had a co-worker who bought a home in Milford, PA and commuted by train to Newark, NJ. Only way he could afford a single family home for his family.

Shouldn't Pennsylvania be paying for the portion of the line in their state? It would have to be operated similar to how NJT operates the Port Jervis Line for MNCR.

MNCR owns the equipment, but it is pooled with NJT equipment. The trains are operated by NJT crews. MNCR funds the operations within NY, but NJT contributes funds for any extra stops made in NJ. If you look at the schedule for that line, all the Port Jervis Line holiday extras are express from Suffern to Secaucus because those are trains that MNCR wanted and NJT didn't. Therefore, MNCR pays the full cost of operating them and they skip the NJ stops.

I'm guessing the Lackawanna Cutoff would be run in the same way if it ever makes it out of NJ. PA would have to create a commuter rail agency and pay for their own equipment, or pay NJT to use theirs. They would pay for the cost of running the trains within PA, and NJT would contribute some money for trains that made extra stops in NJ. For that reason, I'm guessing most of the trains on this new line will be express in NJ and skip most of the stops between Port Morris and Newark. Some might stop at Dover and/or Summit (if taking Morristown Line) or MSU (if taking Montclair Line).

I imagine that's how things will operate, trainbrain. Would a new agency have to be created (NEPTA, anyone?) to fund PA portion of service. I'm sure that would slow things down a bit, unless PADOT would do it.

PA would not pay for it. Philadelphia fights just to get SEPTA subsidized. Some representatives in Harrisburg equate transit to welfare.

I just don't see the incentive or the demand to connect Scranton with the rest of the world. Stroudsburg maybe, but Scranton is just a bit too far and maybe more than a bit too depressed. I had heard that some of the popular places downtown like The Banshee, Tinks, and others had closed since I left the area but man, this looks sad!

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Hey! I object to my home city being called "too depressed". We have a massive heroin industry as well as some of the finest disability scammers on the planet.

Since the area's supply comes from NYC there might be a few dozen "mules" riding the train every day...

You are right, though. A lot of places downtown have closed.

I would think a regional Amtrak type service would be more appropriate as we have a few colleges in the area and a growing warehousing and distribution industry that attracts a lot of business travellers. No one is going to ride a 3.5 hour long train service as an NYC commuter.

If there is any foundation to The Times' Friday article being discussed here, it is safe to say that NJT has "a few other concerns" that need be addressed before projects such as this can again be considered. The esoteric stuff such as on to Monroe County, on to Scranton, will continue to be dreams

I'd dare say that the Andover extension at this time is somewhere between dormant and dead.

Don't count on NJT to run to Scranton. If it ever crosses the Delaware, I could see it going to E. Stroudsburg. While more people have moved to Northeastern PA, especially in communities along the former Lackawanna Pocono Main, that doesn't mean that the line should get any regular passenger rail service. There are way too many curves along the original route and that would really make the train much slower than driving or taking the bus. Plus, as others said, NJT has more important issues to take care of east, before it could cross into Northeastern PA.

There are a few canards here, other than NJT''s obvious reticence to contract-operating so far into the state of PA (which in theory could be overcome, but the factors are quite daunting mainly due to the politics).

The situation with the curves would not be the main factor in slowing down a train to the point where it could not "compete" with a bus traveling on the parallel highway route. Aside from the buses not adhering to the speed limit on the interstates for the most part (yes, they do speed), even a Class 4 tracked railroad could maintain a 40-mph average speed through the area; this was the case in the past with the Phoebe Snow even in the 1960s (stopped at East Stroudsburg, Cresco and Pocono Summit). Martz buses make a number of local stops in the area as well, and I-80 in the region east of Scotrun is restricted to 55 mph to Stroudsburg where it is further slowed to 50 mph. The main factor in slowing trains down is the FRA's effect on operating practices, and whatever culture exists on the ground within the operator's domain.

Regrettably, the point about running through snowstorms has become muted what with NJT and even Amtrak, although they have done so successfully in the past, having shut down their operations in snowstorms last winter, and snowstorms that did not even match that of the 1996 blizzard in ferocity (through which both railroads operated quite well). But based on past practice, there is no match between bus and rail on this field, until the storm ends and the roads are plowed and salted that is.

And finally, the merits of what communities "should get any regular passenger rail service" ought not be based on personal opinion. With all due respect.

Related of sorts to this epic, one must wonder how much a Monthly ticket on the bus from Monroe County to PABT will go up as a result:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/02/nyreg ... ll-up.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fair Use:

MAHWAH, N.J. — Stephanie Long roared into a service station in her red Mustang late on Monday, yanked a red lollipop from her mouth and told the attendant to top off the tank, fast. She was worried about the red ink in her budget.

Ms. Long, a graduate student who has been holding down three jobs trying to cover her expenses, was out to beat a deadline that haunted drivers in and around New Jersey on Halloween: At midnight, the state’s gasoline tax would jump by 23 cents per gallon, to 37.5 cents.

“I’m going to need a new car because of this, maybe a Prius,” said Ms. Long, 24, who lives in Suffern, N.Y., as she handed the attendant three $1 bills — the cost of 1.485 gallons of regular. “I’d like to keep the ’Stang, but I can’t be cool forever.”

Somehow, those who made the exodus from rented quarters in the Outer Boroughs to "ownership" in Monroe County on the strength of one "liar loan" or the other, are largely gone, with nothing more than disrupted lives and a 400 credit score to show for it. But for those who have somehow "hung on", could this inevitable fare increase be the last straw?

Much earlier in this epic, I linked a series of articles from The Times regarding life on the road (highway) from Monroe County:

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