Boston Surface Railroad: Worcester-Providence Commuter Rail

mtuandrew wrote:

deathtopumpkins wrote:No, the T has a coach shortage right now.

Makes sense. I was going off BandA's post upthread for a suggested "deadhead" revenue run using T equipment:

BandA wrote:I read somewhere that the "T" CR deadheads (a doubleset?) from Worcester to Boston to Providence at the end of the day. I assume that even today a direct Worcester-Providence routing of a deadhead would be faster, although they would have to pay P&W rather than running on their own tracks. Are the labor & fuel costs for a longer run smaller than trackage fees & inefficiency handing off the train?

But, if MBTA doesn't have enough equipment anyway and would prefer revenue runs WOR-BOS and BOS-PVD (or BOS-TF Green), that isn't going to help BSRY.

It'd be fun to see something oddball like the SNC (LIRR) C1s or the SLE Constitution Liners (SPVs), but something like MARC IIs or some sort of Comet makes more sense. Are there height restrictions that would preclude galleries or Bomb bilevels (sausage links?)

BSRY was rumored to be looking at CDOT's FL9 locos and the Constitution liners, but that a year ago. The ex- SPV-2000 Constitutions aren't up-to-snuff for current FRA regs at the cab ends, so can't see those being a viable option given that the modification costs would exceed the purchase costs. Near-zero chance those will ever run again outside of a rail museum excursion train. The FL9's are in theory stored in fully operational state with CDOT looking to sell them operational. But because it's been so long since they've last regularly run, devil is totally in the details on unit-by-unit viability there. Fact that negotiations supposedly started over a year ago and there's been no rumors since is a strong hint that they're not quite at full plug-and-play readiness.


Can't see where recent ex- commuter coaches are going to be easily found for this. As noted, the T has a bad shortage right now. The mothballed MBB cars it does have stored in Rhode Island and on Cape Cod have floor rot issues that are going to take some sum of money to fix if there's intent to use them for daily service instead of, say, couple times a week on some excursion carrier. NJ Transit did a big round of spring cleaning last year and got rid of nearly all the retired Comets that were malingering in storage; after years of being the go-to supplier for old stuff they're pretty tapped out. The MARC IIA's are the only ones known that are up for dispersal, and that's assuming MARC hasn't already locked in on plans for a scrapping program. If you're going by probabilities, the purchase options are far more likely to be something that hasn't run in commuter rail service in a long time. Very old refurbished stuff...decent-condition 1950's-60's stock passed through excursion carriers that's "good enough" livery for the task but not representative of active 1970's-80's commuter rail rolling stock. The kind of refurbs that an Iowa Pacific-like outfit stockpiles and cycles around, rather than dispersals straight from a commuter rail agency's boneyard.

F-line: I'm thinking either west of the Appalachians or north of the border, personally. Either way, BSRY has bigger fish to fry than equipment - if/when the time comes, they'll have trains to run.

MBTA costs about $90 per train mile overall; incremental service like the CapeFLYER is about $35 per train mile. Let's give BSR the benefit of the doubt and say they can run new service at $60 per train mile. Let's say 50% of their ridership is PVD-WST at $10, and 50% is PVD-WOR at $16. 16 miles to Woonsocket, 43 to Worcester. Let's ignore trackage costs and debt service payments for now.

That means that two WOR-PVD round trips a day will cost about $10,320 a day. That means they need just about exactly 100 Woonsocket and 100 Worcester passengers per trip just to break even.

If they want to pay off a $10 million investment in 3 years (and let's assume that weekend ridership isn't going to rise), they need about 225 Woonsocket and 225 Worcester passengers on every train. If they want to make a million dollars a year, that goes up to 260 per train from each destination.

So now you're talking 500+ passengers each way on two daily round trips. That means you're looking at an outlay of two locomotives and 12 single-level cars, minimum. Even with used equipment, that's more in the 20 million dollar range.

The 2007 Woonsocket commuter rail study estimated demand of 900-1000 passengers per day to Providence and 500-600 per day to Worcester.... with 24 to 42 daily round trips, higher speeds than the track supports today, and 11 more stops (with park-and-ride) than BSR is proposing. That included a quality Boston connection at Pawtucket, MBTA equipment/branding/ticketing/etc, decent stations, etc. Initial capital costs: $60 million.

The math simply doesn't add up. In order to pay back any possible capital costs and break even or make any money, they have to attract significantly more riders than their service is likely to get.

Rhode Island could do it as full-service commuter rail to Providence, or split the costs with Massachusetts for bidirectional PVD/WOR service. Or hire Amtrak to run a more limited number of trips - I'm willing to bet a PVD-WOR service or a NLC-PVD-WOR service, with local stops on the NEC either with good timed connections to Northeast Regionals, would serve a pretty healthy market for service to Worcester from PVD and south. I would even be optimistic if RI paid P&W directly for service than piggybacked on MBTA or Amtrak ticketing - the railroad has been nothing but honest with its dealings, and would probably run passenger service for a modest cost in exchange for freight-supportive track upgrades. But the key for any of those is using an existing operator and an existing back-end system, and operating the line for public and economic benefit supported by state-level subsidy. This isn't Florida, it's not Texas - there's not a place for an independent private operator to make a buck.

Not sure what bearing this has, or if we've noted it earlier: Telegram

Brief, fair-use:

Commuter rail company moves to Woonsocket

WORCESTER — Boston Surface Railroad, the company aiming to connect Worcester and Providence by commuter rail, has moved into new offices in Woonsocket, R.I.
Situated almost halfway between Providence and Worcester, Woonsocket will likely be the commuter rail's only stop. According to Boston Surface's website, the company hopes to start trips in early 2018 and is exploring the option of beginning service from Woonsocket to Providence earlier than that.
Boston Surface's plan to connect these cities has been in the works since late 2014, with the company negotiating use of existing tracks owned by The Providence and Worcester Railroad Co. No material agreements have been reached yet, according to Charles D. Rennick, secretary and general counsel for P&W.

They were no more than a P.O. Box in a building full of various law offices in Arlington, MA prior to this, with the owner and any/all part-time staff running the company remote from their cell phones. One would assume that if this has advanced far enough as proper STB filings they've got permanent office staff now and need real office space. I doubt you're talking anything bigger than a closet-sized suite in a miscellaneous office building, but some sort of office HQ is now necessary for them to day-to-day function as a corporate entity.

I thought I read previously that they actually moved into the old Woonsocket train station building?

Forgive me again for not paying attention to this and not keeping track but where is all the funding for this coming from?

theseaandalifesaver wrote:Forgive me again for not paying attention to this and not keeping track but where is all the funding for this coming from?

The whole reason this is so interesting but the process is so frustratingly opaque is that it's been privately funded. The public story is that the service can be started with only 3-5 million in startup capital with no public money to be used.

According to my friends at the P&W and Jacobs Engineering, BSRC has spent a pretty penny already on engineering and track surveys including Hi Rails and even renting and running an Amtrak geometry car from Worcester right down into Providence.

Th recent filing with Surface Transportation Board means that they will have to convince the STB that they have a viable business model since the STB has *economic" oversight of all freight and interstate passenger rail (the FRA has safety oversight). This filing alone isn't cheap nor is the downtown Boston law firm that filed it.

They aren't very forthcoming with their business plan but they do return emails and phone calls.

Supposedly there is an announcement coming in July.

With regard to equipment-- doesn't Trinity Railway Express down in TX have a bunch of relatively-recently-upgraded ex-VIA RDC's in storage?

Ridgefielder wrote:With regard to equipment-- doesn't Trinity Railway Express down in TX have a bunch of relatively-recently-upgraded ex-VIA RDC's in storage?

Yes, they have 13 RDCs in their yard, more than enough to provide this service. But they are all due for a semi-major overhaul, which is why they are idle. The TRE partners don't want to spend the money presently for the overhauls when they are planning on spending money on other newer rail cars for new lines. But I'm not sure they are up for sale, or lease far removed from the DFW area, they are treated as spares if a disaster strikes the cars in use today.

Ridgefielder wrote:With regard to equipment-- doesn't Trinity Railway Express down in TX have a bunch of relatively-recently-upgraded ex-VIA RDC's in storage?

They do, but they're holding them for lease-out to other intrastate transit expansions. Extremely, extremely unlikely that they'll ever entertain offers from an unknown private operation as the whole reason for springing for the full rebuild for what amounted to an interim fleet was so the cars would have long-term utility as catch-all interim fleet to be transacted around to other expansion-minded transit agencies in the region. It wouldn't jibe with TRE's original justification to Texas taxpayers for the rebuild costs to part with them entirely on the private market. If things change with their needs for spreadable reserves they're far more likely to do a public-for-public transaction that amortizes TRE's investment by having the new owner/lessor underwrite the cost of the next slate of midlife refreshes. Very low odds they get the same value for the asset by fielding phone calls from a private startup that didn't exist 2 years ago and doesn't have open books.


Also, there's a lot more FRA burden-of-proof to square for running RDC's intermingled with a Class II freight carrier's substantial mainline loads than there is with old push-pulls. RDC's don't meet current crashworthiness regs, wouldn't run here on a largely freight-free or freight-few line like the other active and recent U.S. commuter rail users, wouldn't qualify under BSRY for the looser heritage carrier exemptions for vintage rolling stock, and would require P&W to commit more than they're likely comfortable doing to space out running times of its moderately busy slate of mid-morning/mid-afternoon freight jobs for bigger time separation buffer between RDC slots. This operation has a lot of bureaucratic hurdles to clear as it is; it would be unwise business for them to complicate things to another degree by shooting for grandfathered RDC's to boot. That's one reason why the only rumors that have escaped the wall of silence around their operations was them sniffing around CDOT's push-pull refuse.


Given the few other recent ex- commuter rail rolling stock options, you're probably looking at the same private aftermarket supply chain of two-generations-removed stuff that Iowa Pacific trades in. Not "modern" in any sense, but plenty of perfectly usable and comfortable stock to go around if the buyer has the money to properly maintain them. If that does indeed include a serious look at RDC's, they're probably going to have an easier time fishing for good-condition buys from excursion carriers rather than dealing with the extra bureaucracy of a public sale from TRE's reserves and the extra time and legwork required to convince TRE or some other taxpayer-funded public agency to transact with them.

When was the last time direct service was offered from Providence to Worcester? And how logistically with MBTA and Amtrak trains serving Worcester would this even work?

johnpbarlow wrote:Boston Surface Railroad Co (BS RR) has submitted a filing with the STB that reveals their proposed Worcester-Woonsocket-Providence schedule (2 RTs/day departing Worcester in AM and returning in the evening at 1:20 duration) and pricing ($10 to $16 per trip). BS RR has MOU with Amtrak (won't be operating on NEC but on Amtrak track 7 into/out of PVD station), is negotiating with P&WRR who is proposed operator, and is seeking to acquire interstate capable and Amtrak compliant locomotives and cars.

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ ... 240954.pdf

Interesting (and erroneous) statement wrt competition in the Worcester-PVD lane:

At present there are no direct flights between the two cities, and round trip fares range from $546 to $1,021. Because such
flights are not direct, they require travel time of from 7 hours to 19.5 hours. Bus travel between the two cities is inexpensive, but the estimated time for a one-way trip by bus
is three hours and forty-five minutes [BSRR cites Greyhound web site but in fact Peter Pan bus currently offers one daily morning rush trip at 1 hour 25 minute duration between Worcester and PVD priced at $23 and one late afternoon PVD to Worcester trip at $20 for almost 2 hour duration.]. Intercity rail service between the two cities is currently available, but the service is not direct; a first leg from Worcester to Boston takes an hour and a half, and the second leg from Boston takes an additional hour and twenty minutes.

Given there is only limited semi-rush hour Worcester-PVD bus service at roughly the same price that BS RR is proposing for its service, I wonder if there really is a market for this offering. It doesn't appear to me that BS RR has done its homework thoroughly enough. We will see ...

Direct flights between Providence and Worcester??????????? Whoever wrote that must think that the STB is staffed by idiots (is it?). How many city pairs on the planet that are less than 50 miles apart have scheduled commercial airline service (okay, there may be some in very remote areas). That is so ridiculous I can't understand how anyone would include it in the filing...

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:They do, but they're holding them for lease-out to other intrastate transit expansions. Extremely, extremely unlikely that they'll ever entertain offers from an unknown private operation as the whole reason for springing for the full rebuild for what amounted to an interim fleet was so the cars would have long-term utility as catch-all interim fleet to be transacted around to other expansion-minded transit agencies in the region. It wouldn't jibe with TRE's original justification to Texas taxpayers for the rebuild costs to part with them entirely on the private market. If things change with their needs for spreadable reserves they're far more likely to do a public-for-public transaction that amortizes TRE's investment by having the new owner/lessor underwrite the cost of the next slate of midlife refreshes. Very low odds they get the same value for the asset by fielding phone calls from a private startup that didn't exist 2 years ago and doesn't have open books.


Also, there's a lot more FRA burden-of-proof to square for running RDC's intermingled with a Class II freight carrier's substantial mainline loads than there is with old push-pulls. RDC's don't meet current crashworthiness regs, wouldn't run here on a largely freight-free or freight-few line like the other active and recent U.S. commuter rail users, wouldn't qualify under BSRY for the looser heritage carrier exemptions for vintage rolling stock, and would require P&W to commit more than they're likely comfortable doing to space out running times of its moderately busy slate of mid-morning/mid-afternoon freight jobs for bigger time separation buffer between RDC slots. This operation has a lot of bureaucratic hurdles to clear as it is; it would be unwise business for them to complicate things to another degree by shooting for grandfathered RDC's to boot. That's one reason why the only rumors that have escaped the wall of silence around their operations was them sniffing around CDOT's push-pull refuse.

Got it. I wasn't aware that the RDC's don't meet modern FRA standards. The TRE equipment just came to mind because a) it had been in revenue commuter service relatively recently, and b) Providence-Worcester seemed like a natural fit for a Budd car. Also wasn't aware of the TX taxpayer hurdles.

You know, something to bear in mind: this is a private startup. They are trying to attract profitable paying customers to their service. That's going to be difficult to do if they're running beat-up old junk pulled off a dead line somewhere. Whatever they do run will likely have to have been upgraded enough to compare favorably to the Peter Pan bus. I'd expect that would mean, at the least, fresh paint, comfortable seats and WiFi, if not some sort of in-train snack and/or beverage service (yes, I know it's only 40-odd miles from Providence to Worcester, but MN's New Haven Line bar cars ran runs of comparable distance.)

theseaandalifesaver wrote:When was the last time direct service was offered from Providence to Worcester? And how logistically with MBTA and Amtrak trains serving Worcester would this even work?

The New Haven routed the State of Maine to the B&M at Worcester via Providence until that train stopped running in 1960, but IIRC local service ceased in the early 1950's.

theseaandalifesaver wrote:When was the last time direct service was offered from Providence to Worcester? And how logistically with MBTA and Amtrak trains serving Worcester would this even work?

As I understand it from the previous posts and articles along with the folks at P&W there is no overlap with any other railroad in Worcester - only P&W. In Providence there would be negotiations for the use of Providence Station (does anyone know if it has another name? Penn, Union, Central? Etc) and incoming tracks with Amtrak but since P&W already rights to those or at lease arrangements it seems to me that it would be money and insurance requirements as hurdles.