Southern Tier - West of Binghamton

So there are currently 5 daily road train pairs running the Tier into/out of Binghamton: 22K/23K intermodal, 205/206 intermodal, 28N/287 autoracks, 36T/37T manifest, and 309/310 manifest.

Here's a URL to a Railfan.net forum discussion re: Conrail and D&H freights that ran on the Tier in 1987 (before CP) and 1992 (CP):
http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?bo ... ;start=2#2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Net: NS runs slightly more daily road trains on the Tier than CR/D&H/CP did but, on the other hand, runs fewer non-daily trains such as unit coal trains and runs no west coast-NJ land bridge double stack trains.

Fair point about the overall volume of traffic, John. It should be noted that the Tier now hosts daily intermodal traffic to/from New England... which didn't happen under Conrail.

And yes, the coal trains are gone, although that has little (if anything) to do with NS. On the other hand, there are ethanol trains now, and occasional unit trains of sand to Sayre. Also, there was no equivalent to H06 in the Conrail era.

All well and fine, but compare with say 10-20 years ago..... overall traffic through Binghamton is unquestionably at or near historic low levels. Which was also the case in the late 80s and early 90s time periods referenced above, as compared with both earlier and later time periods. 1987-1992 was the decline of Guilford, removal of ELOI/OIEL, D&H designated operator due to bankruptcy, etc. and the 257/258, CR multilevel trains, various incarnations of 168/169/268/269/205/206 etc. and some other CP symbols etc. had yet to arrive on the scene. So yes, it doesn't look too bad right now IF you only compare it with the preceding lowest traffic volume point in history... compare with 1995-2010+/-, or pre 1980s, and either way it falls far short. But yes, for a few years in the late 80s/early 90s, traffic was low enough to be comparable with today.

Well, we could go back to 1974, when a daily average of 27 symbol freights traveled EL between Binghamton and Hornell and 17 freights polished the rails between Hornell and Buffalo*. Obviously traffic levels are lower now... but going back to the phrase "no trains", it is a bit of a misnomer. NS will still have to issue traffic blackouts so they can work on the D&H and there will be some minor service disruptions as a result. The following symbols would be affected on the Tier: 22K/23K, 28N/287, 205/206 and 66N/67N.

One more thing- I think it's a pretty safe bet that NS will add at least a few trains to the Tier after the Letchworth bridge is replaced.


*-data courtesy of Trains magazine February 2005 issue

What?

are you really that blind to what's going on in USA? RR are laying off hundreds of train crews since last fall... # of trains are down Crude trains are down... coals trains are down. I believe intermodals are down too... Locomotives are stored... As well as crude oil cars.

Don't you recall that about a year and half ago, NS have a lot of parked trains all over ST.. and NS were hiring more crews. These same new crews are probably looking for new jobs right now.

Quit complaining... Just wait for businesses to turn around.. BTW... Now that the oil price is skyrocketing.. If that keeps up, then the crude oil trains will be coming back and running like crazy again to get that damn price down. (DAMN OBAMA)

Well, everything doesn't have to be taken COMPLETELY literally! Yes, there are still a FEW trains running. Just was a comment on the way NS seems to do things in the northeast, cutting traffic left and right but still keeping nice track. Meanwhile over at CSX, traffic grows- yes the track may not be as nice, but....

As far as more trains on the Tier- we've been hearing that for 17 years now! I'm no longer holding my breath... Letchworth is by all appearances only even getting done now, after 17 years of talk, because the State finally caved and threw NS some free cash (probably to appease southern tier constituents who were hearing the story spun as "rail service in the southern tier is in danger of shutting down if the state won't pay to replace the bridge. The bridge is the thing keeping us from being the land of milk and honey!"). I hope it opens a floodgate, but I'm not too optimistic that one bridge with a slow order has been a significant factor in discouraging traffic growth for almost 2 decades.... if it was coming, they would have built it (to paraphrase a bit).

oibu wrote:Well, everything doesn't have to be taken COMPLETELY literally! Yes, there are still a FEW trains running. Just was a comment on the way NS seems to do things in the northeast, cutting traffic left and right but still keeping nice track. Meanwhile over at CSX, traffic grows- yes the track may not be as nice, but....

CSX has actually cut some trains as train symbols, as well. It should be noted that they are running much longer trains, so some of that tonnage is still there. Likewise, the traffic formerly handled by NS 38T/39T has been handed over to 36T/37T and NS 309/310. That's a smart policy because the last 39T I actually saw was rather short.

And to me, no means no. If we are going to talk about subtleties, your comment of "no trains" infers that nothing will be disrupted when in fact, there will be some disruptions.

oibu wrote:As far as more trains on the Tier- we've been hearing that for 17 years now! I'm no longer holding my breath... Letchworth is by all appearances only even getting done now, after 17 years of talk, because the State finally caved. I hope it opens a floodgate, but I'm not too optimistic that one bridge with a slow order has been a significant factor in discouraging traffic growth for almost 2 decades.... if it was coming, they would have built it (to paraphrase a bit).

Not just a slow order but a weight restriction, as well! A bridge that can't handle car weights that are now industry standard is a problem. And yes, the state should be involved and help pay, since A. the state pays for highways that compete against rail and B. the Tier must be relocated within a state park.

I am optimistic about NS adding a few trains when the Letchworth bridge is replaced. Not alot of trains, mind you... but a few anyway. I'm guessing 2-4 will be added when all is said and done.

Finally, I've been much happier with NS owning the Tier over the past 17 years than I was with Conrail's ownership. NS reduced the tax burden on NY RRs, with the cooperation of CSX. Conrail never accomplished that. CR owned the Letchworth bridge for 23 years and let it deteriorate. NS and the state now have the burden of replacing a failing structure that should been addressed by Conrail 30-35 years ago. NS has found a way to use the Tier as part of gateway to/from New England. Conrail did not leverage that opportunity. Conrail did some things quite well but long term stewardship of the Tier was not one of them. Pffft...

Matt Langworthy wrote:

oibu wrote: Finally, I've been much happier with NS owning the Tier over the past 17 years than I was with Conrail's ownership. NS reduced the tax burden on NY RRs, with the cooperation of CSX. Conrail never accomplished that. CR owned the Letchworth bridge for 23 years and let it deteriorate. NS and the state now have the burden of replacing a failing structure that should been addressed by Conrail 30-35 years ago. NS has found a way to use the Tier as part of gateway to/from New England. Conrail did not leverage that opportunity. Conrail did some things quite well but long term stewardship of the Tier was not one of them. Pffft...

Lets not forget that Conrail got handed a piece of railroad that was not supposed to be part of the system and that it did not want.
After the Chessie negotiations fell through a quick arrangement was made to extend the D&H and the state also made mandates as to how many trains Conrail was required to run on the line.

As one who has been trackside on the Tier for the last 40 years I can say that current traffic levels are poor at best. I'd love to see the days again when you can catch at least a dozen daylight trains running, but I doubt it will happen.

I'm not saying the state shouldn't chip in, but rather that NS' unwillingness to do anything until the state chipped in 25% of the funding for the project and hasn't done anything to build overall total traffic in 17 years of ownership, doesn't give much reason to believe things will change much after there is a new bridge. Also, given the tax abatements given to NS, and the disingenuity and failure to deliver on numerous claims and promises between NS' initial vying for CR until today, I don't blame NYS for considering any funding sent NS's way to be essentially just throwing more good money after bad. I wouldn't likely give or lend money to someone with that track record either. Maybe CR paid full rate on taxes, but they also got huge amounts of NYS capital funding in return, and didn't repeatedly renege on promises or make claims they had no intention of keeping just to keep NYS "on board" or get funds or tax breaks.

As far as overall total traffic I think we're beating dead horse. As other long-time observers have also stated, it's way down.

Yes, thanks to recent economic turns etc. CSX has cut a couple sets of trains of late. But look at the overall volume. Conrail never polished the rails on the Chicago line like CSX has been over the past several years- and all of that even with the lingering recession!

Believe whatever floats your boat, but it doesn't change the number of trains actually operating, or the fact that the former torch held by NS has been passed to CSX in the post-Snow era.

I was under the impression that the Letchworth bridge replacement would also help facilitate regional intermodal runs from Port Newark/Elizabeth up to the Buffalo area, and more intermodal routing from the midwest to Massachusetts. Way fewer trains are definitely running compared to EL days. but that is partially offset by the heavier freight loads carried today [110 tons/car when bridge is done] compared to EL days [50 to 70 tons/car].

There was no reason for Conrail to use the Tier for New England trains. They already could use the mUch quicker NYC route for that.

One of the issues that causes inefficiencies for NS is the problem with clearances along the PAR. If they could stack the trains, they might be able to combine some. I'm not sure what ever happened to the idea of filleting trains at Mechanicville but it made a lot of sense.

oibu wrote:I'm not saying the state shouldn't chip in, but rather that NS' unwillingness to do anything...

Do you have any documentation on this? From what I've heard, the state was the party dragging its heals to replace the bridge.

oibu wrote:Yes, thanks to recent economic turns etc. CSX has cut a couple sets of trains of late. But look at the overall volume. Conrail never polished the rails on the Chicago line like CSX has been over the past several years- and all of that even with the lingering recession!

Believe whatever floats your boat, but it doesn't change the number of trains actually operating, or the fact that the former torch held by NS has been passed to CSX in the post-Snow era.

As the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Conrail was running 60-70 trains per day (excluding Amtrak) through Rochester during the 1990s. CSX was running about 45-55 trains per day on the Rochester Sub before the recent cuts, so your math simply does not add up. Don't believe me? it's been discussed in older threads on this message board.

As someone who holds large blocks of stock in both CSX and NS, I can assure you no torch has been passed. NS stock has a better earnings ratio than CSX stock.

SecaucusJunction wrote:There was no reason for Conrail to use the Tier for New England trains. They already could use the mUch quicker NYC route for that.

One of the issues that causes inefficiencies for NS is the problem with clearances along the PAR. If they could stack the trains, they might be able to combine some. I'm not sure what ever happened to the idea of filleting trains at Mechanicville but it made a lot of sense.

Agreed. As I've said before, EL should never have been part of Conrail. I do see occasional double stacks on 23K, so A little bit of filleting has been done. I am curious to see if NS will eventually acquire PAR and improve Hoosac Tunnel. That could be boon for the Tier.

ccutler wrote:I was under the impression that the Letchworth bridge replacement would also help facilitate regional intermodal runs from Port Newark/Elizabeth up to the Buffalo area, and more intermodal routing from the midwest to Massachusetts. Way fewer trains are definitely running compared to EL days. but that is partially offset by the heavier freight loads carried today [110 tons/car when bridge is done] compared to EL days [50 to 70 tons/car].

Exactly. NS has talked about using Buffalo as an inland port. Improvements to the Tier, such as replacing the bridge, will facilitate that project.

Tonnage is an interesting discussion these days. A friend commented to me recently about the Tier having roughly the same number of train symbols as the LV did in its final years. He was concerned, until I reminded him how much heavier the trains are these days. They definitely carry more than they did in the '70s.

Matt Langworthy wrote:

SecaucusJunction wrote:There was no reason for Conrail to use the Tier for New England trains. They already could use the mUch quicker NYC route for that.

One of the issues that causes inefficiencies for NS is the problem with clearances along the PAR. If they could stack the trains, they might be able to combine some. I'm not sure what ever happened to the idea of filleting trains at Mechanicville but it made a lot of sense.

Agreed. As I've said before, EL should never have been part of Conrail. I do see occasional double stacks on 23K, so A little bit of filleting has been done. I am curious to see if NS will eventually acquire PAR and improve Hoosac Tunnel. That could be boon for the Tier.

22K and 23K do run on occasion to/from Ayer with a domestic container plopped on top of an international container, which clears Hoosac Tunnel. And 22K does handle the Taylor double stacks as far as Binghamton. AFAIK, 22K/23K don't stop at Mechanicville (except to change crews) so there is no filleting going on there. Filleting a large # of containers would seem to add a few hours to Chicago-Ayer transit times.