MARC New Multilevels

Fan Railer wrote:

electricron wrote:

jcepler1 wrote:Wednesday and Thursday of this week, the MARC Brunswick line train that passes Twinbrook Metro Station at 5:30pm has had 4 or 5 multi-level cars on it, with I think a single level car in the front and back.

Interesting they are using a single level car for a cab. Does that mean they haven't received any new cab cars yet? As I understand the 54 car order, 16 were to be cabs while 39 were to be without cabs.

No, the cabs were delivered (the entire order should have been completed some months ago). Perhaps they are not certified to lead revenue trains yet?

Could be a crew certification shortage.. But theyre using the coaches without the cabs because they want to send the "cattle cars" as my one friend referred to them out the door.

ACeInTheHole wrote:

Fan Railer wrote:

electricron wrote:

jcepler1 wrote:Wednesday and Thursday of this week, the MARC Brunswick line train that passes Twinbrook Metro Station at 5:30pm has had 4 or 5 multi-level cars on it, with I think a single level car in the front and back.

Interesting they are using a single level car for a cab. Does that mean they haven't received any new cab cars yet? As I understand the 54 car order, 16 were to be cabs while 39 were to be without cabs.

No, the cabs were delivered (the entire order should have been completed some months ago). Perhaps they are not certified to lead revenue trains yet?

Could be a crew certification shortage.. But theyre using the coaches without the cabs because they want to send the "cattle cars" as my one friend referred to them out the door.

It's none of the above. The cab cars need modifications since they were designed to work with NJT's brake system and isn't compatible with MARC's system.

ThirdRail7 wrote:

ACeInTheHole wrote:

Fan Railer wrote:

electricron wrote:

jcepler1 wrote:Wednesday and Thursday of this week, the MARC Brunswick line train that passes Twinbrook Metro Station at 5:30pm has had 4 or 5 multi-level cars on it, with I think a single level car in the front and back.

Interesting they are using a single level car for a cab. Does that mean they haven't received any new cab cars yet? As I understand the 54 car order, 16 were to be cabs while 39 were to be without cabs.

No, the cabs were delivered (the entire order should have been completed some months ago). Perhaps they are not certified to lead revenue trains yet?

Could be a crew certification shortage.. But theyre using the coaches without the cabs because they want to send the "cattle cars" as my one friend referred to them out the door.

It's none of the above. The cab cars need modifications since they were designed to work with NJT's brake system and isn't compatible with MARC's system.

Interesting, are you able to explain the differences? (for the record, I'm sure you're technically able, just not sure if...legally? able )

MattW wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote:

ACeInTheHole wrote:

Fan Railer wrote:

electricron wrote:

jcepler1 wrote:Wednesday and Thursday of this week, the MARC Brunswick line train that passes Twinbrook Metro Station at 5:30pm has had 4 or 5 multi-level cars on it, with I think a single level car in the front and back.

Interesting they are using a single level car for a cab. Does that mean they haven't received any new cab cars yet? As I understand the 54 car order, 16 were to be cabs while 39 were to be without cabs.

No, the cabs were delivered (the entire order should have been completed some months ago). Perhaps they are not certified to lead revenue trains yet?

Could be a crew certification shortage.. But theyre using the coaches without the cabs because they want to send the "cattle cars" as my one friend referred to them out the door.

It's none of the above. The cab cars need modifications since they were designed to work with NJT's brake system and isn't compatible with MARC's system.

Interesting, are you able to explain the differences? (for the record, I'm sure you're technically able, just not sure if...legally? able )

Here's the simplified non-railroader explanation of what I think is the primary difference.:

NJT non-MU rolling stock uses a non-self lapping brake valve setup, meaning the engineer manually controls the brake pipe reduction by toggling between the service (apply brake pressure), lap (hold brake pressure), and release (self explanatory) positions on the train brake handle. IIRC, the only other commuter railroad that uses that brake setup on their push pull equipment is the LIRR.

Most, if not all other passenger railroads, which would include MARC I would venture, probably use the more common self-lapping brake valve setup, meaning that the train brake handle is set up so that between the min reduction position and the full service position, there is a continuous range of brake application. If a higher brake rate is desired, the engineer simply advances the brake handle towards the full service position by the desired amount.

Come to think of it, I'm not surprised that they would have neglected to change out the brake setup on the MARC ML cabs... I recall seeing pictures of MARC MLs in service that still display on their LED passenger info strips "NJ Transit" lol.

Fan Railer wrote:

MattW wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote:

ACeInTheHole wrote:

Fan Railer wrote:

electricron wrote:

jcepler1 wrote:Wednesday and Thursday of this week, the MARC Brunswick line train that passes Twinbrook Metro Station at 5:30pm has had 4 or 5 multi-level cars on it, with I think a single level car in the front and back.

Interesting they are using a single level car for a cab. Does that mean they haven't received any new cab cars yet? As I understand the 54 car order, 16 were to be cabs while 39 were to be without cabs.

No, the cabs were delivered (the entire order should have been completed some months ago). Perhaps they are not certified to lead revenue trains yet?

Could be a crew certification shortage.. But theyre using the coaches without the cabs because they want to send the "cattle cars" as my one friend referred to them out the door.

It's none of the above. The cab cars need modifications since they were designed to work with NJT's brake system and isn't compatible with MARC's system.

Interesting, are you able to explain the differences? (for the record, I'm sure you're technically able, just not sure if...legally? able )

Here's the simplified non-railroader explanation of what I think is the primary difference.:

NJT non-MU rolling stock uses a non-self lapping brake valve setup, meaning the engineer manually controls the brake pipe reduction by toggling between the service (apply brake pressure), lap (hold brake pressure), and release (self explanatory) positions on the train brake handle. IIRC, the only other commuter railroad that uses that brake setup on their push pull equipment is the LIRR.

Most, if not all other passenger railroads, which would include MARC I would venture, probably use the more common self-lapping brake valve setup, meaning that the train brake handle is set up so that between the min reduction position and the full service position, there is a continuous range of brake application. If a higher brake rate is desired, the engineer simply advances the brake handle towards the full service position by the desired amount.

Come to think of it, I'm not surprised that they would have neglected to change out the brake setup on the MARC ML cabs... I recall seeing pictures of MARC MLs in service that still display on their LED passenger info strips "NJ Transit" lol.

MattW:

Fan Railer explained it in a way that is better than anything that I could have typed. He is almost 100% spot on. The only thing he left out is NJT equipment also has electric-pneumatic assist brakes and an electronic hold feature . After you make your service reduction and (manually) lap it off, NJT equipment allows for an "electronic hold" of the application. This feature holds the application while allowing a pneumatic release to recharge your main res/brake pipe pressure.

These features are not available on MARC trains and I guess no one thought of it when they took the NJT cab cars.

Ooops.

Wow, thanks to both of you for the excellent explanations! I didn't think non-self-lapping brakes were even used in passenger service anymore, heck I thought they were mostly gone from freight service except in all but the oldest units still running around.

MattW wrote:Wow, thanks to both of you for the excellent explanations! I didn't think non-self-lapping brakes were even used in passenger service anymore, heck I thought they were mostly gone from freight service except in all but the oldest units still running around.

Here's a relatively old cab ride video shot in an NJT ML cab car. You get a good sample of what it's like to operate a non-self lap brake stand as the train passes through Swift and on to Newark Penn: https://youtu.be/2yT90tkOyqI?t=5m20s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NJT seems to love the setup, so I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon.

It's due to the use of the cab car's Hold feature in the brake valve, which would be leading a consist of cars which don't have this feature equipped, rather than the use of manually lapping vs. self lapping brake valves.

There are now at least three consists with the MARC IV cars on the Brunswick Line. 876 had 5 Multilevels and a single level cab car this morning. 878 had 4 Multilevels and a single level cab car, and so did 883 last night (different consists though).

EM2000 wrote:It's due to the use of the cab car's Hold feature in the brake valve, which would be leading a consist of cars which don't have this feature equipped, rather than the use of manually lapping vs. self lapping brake valves.

So what is involved in converting the cars to the required form of operation?

Most likely requires the change out of the brake valve and related parts to the valve

By disabling the Hold feature in the brake valve/swapping out the brake valve entirely, and disabling the Hold magnet valves on the cars. It's an FRA thing, since it's a position on the brake valve, it must be tested during a brake test and thus work as intended. If a cab car with the feature is leading and the rest of the consist is not equipped, the consist besides the cars/engines equipped with Hold magnet valves will go to full release when testing the Hold feature, failing the brake test.

I finally had a chance to ride one today. About the only good thing I can say is: at least the suspension is nice, though probably not quite as smooth as some of the Kawasackis. Definitely more solid than the average Amfleet, and better damped than the single-level cars. Everything else about them is worse, especially the claustrophobic interior, which I guess is because they are sized so they can fit in the NYC tunnels. I still however prefer them to gallery cars. I would be interested to know whether "time and motion" studies show the multiple doors to actually speed ingress/egress. It seems to me the problem isn't lack of doors (unless you have slam-door UK style stock with 20 doors per side!) but people being airheaded and engrossed in their iphones while exiting, or the people who take forever to gather their belongings.

"These features are not available on MARC trains and I guess no one thought of it when they took the NJT cab cars.

Ooops."

Further reason to fear that, among other reasons, MARC's current idiocies might be caused by a lack of real (commuter focused) railroaders in anything resembling an administrative position. "Why we done need electric trains, muh Ford truck runs on diesel!"

From a gprimr comment in another thread:
"It's not even that the MP36's have been great locomotives either."
A midday MARC train today was being pulled by a "Geep." Well, I'm almost certain but I only took a glance as the train was leaving and it was foggy at BWI. This was around noon.

dt_rt40 wrote:I finally had a chance to ride one today. About the only good thing I can say is: at least the suspension is nice, though probably not quite as smooth as some of the Kawasackis. Definitely more solid than the average Amfleet, and better damped than the single-level cars. Everything else about them is worse, especially the claustrophobic interior, which I guess is because they are sized so they can fit in the NYC tunnels. I still however prefer them to gallery cars. I would be interested to know whether "time and motion" studies show the multiple doors to actually speed ingress/egress. It seems to me the problem isn't lack of doors (unless you have slam-door UK style stock with 20 doors per side!) but people being airheaded and engrossed in their iphones while exiting, or the people who take forever to gather their belongings.

"These features are not available on MARC trains and I guess no one thought of it when they took the NJT cab cars.

Ooops."

Further reason to fear that, among other reasons, MARC's current idiocies might be caused by a lack of real (commuter focused) railroaders in anything resembling an administrative position. "Why we done need electric trains, muh Ford truck runs on diesel!"

From a gprimr comment in another thread:
"It's not even that the MP36's have been great locomotives either."
A midday MARC train today was being pulled by a "Geep." Well, I'm almost certain but I only took a glance as the train was leaving and it was foggy at BWI. This was around noon.

"I still however prefer them to gallery cars."
This x10. The gallery cars were absolutely terrible. It's pretty much the rail equivalent of a school bus. If I continue to take MARC in the future I'm glad I no longer have to arrange my schedule around the gallery car trains.

The retiring of the electric locomotives is easily the worst decision MARC has made in the past decade. Overall though, the system was vastly[/] improved during the previous administration and feels a lot more like the commuter railroads in NYC from the weekend service to the (reliable) LED signs at every station (including the postage stamp size ones). Hopefully when Amtrak has broken in the ACS-64s and they've proven their reliability, MARC might be willing to purchase 6-10 of their own and retire the GP39's for good.

Does anyone know what westboard trains generally use the new cars? I would actually settle for any westbound train that isn't 100% single level old clunkers. I normally take 891 (3:45pm) which is all single level cars. But if I work late, I'd like to avoid the old clunkers.

I rode in one of the new ones on Friday. It was dream compared to the older single level cars. I don't even want to think about the gallery cars....