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  • Winter 2015 and Impact on MBTA

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Winter 2015 and Impact on MBTA

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: sery2831, CRail

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by CRail
 
Bramdeisroberts wrote:I'm sorry that given the recent state of affairs I can't give the unadulterated praise for the T's world-class upper management and legendarily effective maintenance staff that you so plainly want to hear.
Don't tell me what I want. What I want is for this "we won't stand for it!", "Unacceptable!", "Replace the Management", and "Outdated system" rhetoric to take its place in the garbage bin where it belongs. I've issued no praise, this whole situation is pride swallowing for sure, but I've given credit where it's due and denounced the wrongful accusations of equipment age being the culprit. Today, again, there were more Silverbirds than 01800s operating on the red line. It was a set of 01800s that was evacuated on the Braintree line AGAIN and prior to that a set of 01800s was pushed off the line to Alewife by an old broke down unreliable set of Slivers.

Learning is certainly in order here. Figuring out how to prevent such catastrophic failures and complete service closures is paramount. Finger pointing, blasting, pretending to have all the answers, and calling for the replacement of people you've never met and know nothing about is out of order. Leave the over-dramatized rhetoric to the news media and the overnight transit guru Charlie Baker and allow for a constructive conversation here keeping in mind that your audience is made up of people who care about the system, its equipment, its service, and its people.

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by Disney Guy
 
It is (was) unacceptable if the MBTA failed to serve all who were waiting "for awhile" at stations and stops when the 7 PM cessation of service time rolled 'round. In fact the T should (should have) followed the end of day "wait for connecting train" procedures at the connecting subway stations also.

The MBTA needs to be more consciencious about trucking* away snow from the rail rights of way.. In addition there need to be procedures to take sanctions against those who put or leave snow on the tracks including against those who are plowing the streets.

By now things are out of hand. Snow removal should have been ongoing during the overnight periods.

True, there are some areas where the snow can be left near the right of way such as on some parts of the D (Riverside) line. But any area where pushing the Lead Sled results in snow falling back onto the track after the train passes needs trucking away of the snow.

* Vehicles running on steel wheeled bogies, for example a conveyor belt vehicle with a gondola car behind it, qualify. Are there other properties with unused equipment of this sort that could lend the equipment to the T?

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by CRail
 
The last train connections were made except buses didn't wait because they kept running. "Snow service" does run all night. Failed motors is a lot of the problem right now, so it's less the condition of the right of way and more the condition of the equipment. I bet Everett will be in overdrive the next couple weeks!

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by Gerry6309
 
CRail wrote:The last train connections were made except buses didn't wait because they kept running. "Snow service" does run all night. Failed motors is a lot of the problem right now, so it's less the condition of the right of way and more the condition of the equipment. I bet Everett will be in overdrive the next couple weeks!
There are two problems which can cripple rapid transit in snowstorms: Motors and third rail icing. Yesterday's disaster on the Braintree line was caused by a combination of both . The 01800s always seem to have dead cars in service, usually 2 in a 6 car train. The older cars rarely run in service with blue lights lit, making them less susceptible to third rail trouble. The reason may be that dc motors are more complex, and require lengthy and expensive repairs, so dead cars are rapidly pulled and serviced. In any event, the question remains: Why so many dead 01800s?

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by CRail
 
My guess is it's the electronics which control the motors. Moisture isn't going to cause as much trouble to contactors as it will to circuit boards (the reason Seashore has cars from the teens that are basically plug and play yet the new modern LRV has yet to take power). This is why when it comes to transit vehicles and high tech, I'm of the firm belief that less is more!

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by Arlington
 
Is it possible the 1800s are dying out there simply because more of them are deployed out there? (the others having been pulled earlier?). Perhaps lower failures per car-mile, but running up more car-miles (and so a source, overall, of apparently "more" failures?) Or just vs expectations?

Meanwhile, FWIW, the Globe's graphic & article thinks DC motors are more vulnerable.
Image

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by Finch
 
Do they run more 1800's down the Braintree line than Ashmont, meaning the 1800's took the brunt of the hit (getting stuck, stranded, etc.) when that line went out of service due to snow cover?

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by Gerry6309
 
Finch wrote:Do they run more 1800's down the Braintree line than Ashmont, meaning the 1800's took the brunt of the hit (getting stuck, stranded, etc.) when that line went out of service due to snow cover?
In the past there was a policy, involving the 01400s, but nothing since the 01800s arrived. The only issue I see is dead cars in 01800 trains.

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by Finch
 
Gerry6309 wrote:
Finch wrote:Do they run more 1800's down the Braintree line than Ashmont, meaning the 1800's took the brunt of the hit (getting stuck, stranded, etc.) when that line went out of service due to snow cover?
In the past there was a policy, involving the 01400s, but nothing since the 01800s arrived. The only issue I see is dead cars in 01800 trains.
Thanks. I'll keep an eye out for 1800's with blue lights just out of curiosity. Their APS is pretty weak too. I don't remember if it has forced air cooling, but if it did, it might ingest some of this blowing snow as well.

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Gerry6309 wrote:
Finch wrote:Do they run more 1800's down the Braintree line than Ashmont, meaning the 1800's took the brunt of the hit (getting stuck, stranded, etc.) when that line went out of service due to snow cover?
In the past there was a policy, involving the 01400s, but nothing since the 01800s arrived. The only issue I see is dead cars in 01800 trains.
I thought that had to do with no ATO on the 14's keeping them off the Braintree Branch until their mid-80's overhauls gave them the right signaling equipment.

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by Disney Guy
 
I suppose we could call additional or improved or even more esoteric snow removal techniques* preventive maintenance.

The tracks in their present condition might sustain operation for a prolonged period, but another storm would result in quick deterioration down to conditions that are hazardous to the rolling stock.

While the system can't be done all in one night, there were numerous overnight normal shut down periods between storms. The decision has to be made to use these overnights to melt or remove the snow even if the next storm misses us.

Come to think of it, has anyone invented an improved air intake system for cooling down motors, for example a hose, flexible to allow the trucks to swivel, drawing air from higher up, or even drawing interior air?

* Specifically removing (excavating; carving away) of yet more snow about the rails.

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by MBTA3247
 
Disney Guy wrote:Come to think of it, has anyone invented an improved air intake system for cooling down motors, for example a hose, flexible to allow the trucks to swivel, drawing air from higher up, or even drawing interior air?

Traction motor blowers on electric/diesel electric locomotives are located inside the locomotive body with flexible hoses to the motors as you suggested, and with the air intakes located above the frame. They probably haven't done the same with transit equipment due to lack of space for the equipment and/or noise concerns.

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by MACTRAXX
 
Everyone:

With the Boston area in record snowfall territory breaking the previous record that was set in the aftermath
of the Blizzard of 1978 I noticed mentions and comparisons with other cities that have experienced similar
rail related problems following significant snowstorms...I am a bit of a weather buff and these winter storms
and their impact on railroading are a very interesting subject...

I noted Toronto and the TTC mentioned but what surprised me is that no one mentioned Buffalo, NY which
because of its location on Lake Erie's eastern end receives much more snow yearly then Toronto does...

I will mention two significant winter storms to affect Buffalo and western New York: The Blizzard of 1977
and the recent November 2014 lake effect storm which dumped heavy snow on a limited area...

I recall reading that Conrail was so hard hit by the Blizzard of 1977 that they actually used empty hopper
car trains that they filled with snow and sent them down south to dump or thaw the snow - the MBTA will
need to dispose of snow now that they are running out of places to dump it - this could be a way but the
problem is getting any trains like this west which would have to run via the Albany, NY area - Selkirk via
CSX - but I only see this type of option used as a absolute last resort...

I found this historical overview on these weather events:
Blizzard of 1978: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeas ... rd_of_1978" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (2/5 to 2/7, 1978)
Buffalo, NY Blizzard of 1977: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blizzard_of_1977" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (1/28 to 2/1, 1977)
Chicago Blizzard of 1979 and impact on CTA service: http://www.chicago-l.org/mishaps/blizzard79.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I posted the Chicago link because of the similar traction motor problems that were experienced by the CTA
then and what the MBTA is going through now...Good article about these problems from the Boston Globe...

In closing I realize that it is going to take some time for the MBTA to recover from these extreme winter
weather problems and not will it only take patience from everyone to allow services to return to normal
it will be a learning experience about winter weather which many will never forget...

MACTRAXX

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by Bramdeisroberts
 
MBTA3247 wrote:
Disney Guy wrote:Come to think of it, has anyone invented an improved air intake system for cooling down motors, for example a hose, flexible to allow the trucks to swivel, drawing air from higher up, or even drawing interior air?
I'd be very interested to see how the DC motors and blowers were set up on TTC's H-S and UTDC stock. Mechanically, their pre-rocket fleet is just about the closest thing to the Silverbirds and the 1200s that you'll find anywhere in the world. To date I haven't heard of TTC having any major system meltdowns, and they're subject to a great deal more blowing snow than we are.

Traction motor blowers on electric/diesel electric locomotives are located inside the locomotive body with flexible hoses to the motors as you suggested, and with the air intakes located above the frame. They probably haven't done the same with transit equipment due to lack of space for the equipment and/or noise concerns.

Re: Winter Storm of January 26-27, 2015 and Impact on MBTA

  by Finch
 
MBTA3247 wrote:
Disney Guy wrote:Come to think of it, has anyone invented an improved air intake system for cooling down motors, for example a hose, flexible to allow the trucks to swivel, drawing air from higher up, or even drawing interior air?

Traction motor blowers on electric/diesel electric locomotives are located inside the locomotive body with flexible hoses to the motors as you suggested, and with the air intakes located above the frame. They probably haven't done the same with transit equipment due to lack of space for the equipment and/or noise concerns.
For what it's worth, the Type 7's traction motor blowers are inside the passenger compartment, beneath certain seats. They take in air from the side of the carbody and blow it down into the motors through flexible ducts. I don't believe it's an air-tight seal where the duct meets the motor, but it would be a positive pressure at that point. At least the intake is a few feet up above track level.
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