New Hampshire Commuter Rail Discussion

If NH is concerned about the costs of paying for "T" service (thoroughly debunked for Plaistow), they could start their own shuttle trains running to the closest MA stations. Not as convenient as a single ride, but possibly worthwhile. And they can pay NH wages and work rules. They can buy less-customized or used equipment. (They already own one trainset - the Yankee Flyer, lol). What is the above-the-rails operating cost of such a setup vs. Keolis vs. Concord Coach (bus)?

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:

gokeefe wrote:

p42thedowneaster wrote:Whether its 50 or 150 riders/ day the infrastucture would still cost money to maintain and secure. The layover and station would likely require added police presence and would warrant additional fire and haz mat apparatus.

The station would almost certainly be subject to the jurisdiction of the MBTA Police which would come at no cost to Plaistow.

First, thanks for the nice response. I appreciate the good discussion and the further perspective as well.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:They'd do it however RIDOT does it. I don't think there MBTA Transit Police jurisdiction crosses the state line.

Not sure of the arrangement there and I didn't want to get too far into the weeds but I think if the MBTA Police are considered "railroad police" under federal law that simplifies jurisdiction across state lines.

I'm not against commuter rail...I actually like, and occaisionally ride the MBTA CR.
What i see here, however, is a government authority crossing state borders. And whenever government extends its reach there are unintended consequences. Maybe police and fire aren't going to be an issue...but surely something else will arise.

I think the DE is different situation, since it is operated by Amtrak, and its more of a regional system. In general I think of Amtrak as the Interstate option for passenger rail. I would be open to more NH support for the DE and possibly future runs on the NH Main (Concord NH, VT or QC destinations). What I don't think NH needs yet is commuter rail. Nashua-Manchester is as close as it gets. A station in northern Haverhill and northern Tyngsboro is as far as the T needs to extend IMHO.

Not trying to pick nits, but the T did cross a state border into Rhode Island and does seem to be providing a needed and popular service to/from Providence and beyond.
Out of curiosity, have you picked a site in Tyngsboro where those from the northern side of the border would park their cars? If the NIMBY bug can inflect Plaistow, Tyngsboro is equally susceptible.
One other point: Whatever might happen north of the border, I doubt that 3, 3-A, and/or 93 will be getting any wider south of the border. After all, the T is now part of MassDOT, and MassDOT -- especially with a new and cost-conscious governor -- may choose less expensive modes of moving people than widening highways.

jaymac wrote:Not trying to pick nits, but the T did cross a state border into Rhode Island and does seem to be providing a needed and popular service to/from Providence and beyond.
Out of curiosity, have you picked a site in Tyngsboro where those from the northern side of the border would park their cars? If the NIMBY bug can inflect Plaistow, Tyngsboro is equally susceptible.
One other point: Whatever might happen north of the border, I doubt that 3, 3-A, and/or 93 will be getting any wider south of the border. After all, the T is now part of MassDOT, and MassDOT -- especially with a new and cost-conscious governor -- may choose less expensive modes of moving people than widening highways.

North Chelmsford is supposed to be situated at Sleeper and Butterfield Streets a block from Vinal Square where the LRTA buses are. Good public transit connectivity at all points feeding in since LRTA's a pretty robust system and. Bus Route 16 runs every half hour at peak and sucks up all the southern areas of Chelmsford into Vinal Sq. Bus Route 17 only runs hourly but loops around the Merrimack shoreline, Tyngsboro border, and NW extremities of town. Between the two of them (and increased frequencies when the trains come), that'll be a surprisingly high-ridership stop because of the walk-up crowds from all around the area with an easy ride into Vinal Sq. I would assume all the regular Vinal buses are just going to loop at the station kiss-and-ride a block away. The transit mode share is already pretty good out there, at least in terms of getting around town and to/from Lowell. They're an acclimated audience to tap.


Tyngsboro originally wasn't part of the plan because the original Nashua site under consideration wasn't downtown but at Spit Brook Rd. right off Exit 1 (that was back when City of Nashua wasn't ready to commit anything and the T was just looking for the minimum possible distance across the border (in this case, 2/3 mile) to plunk its Lowell Line layover yard and divert the NH license plates off Route 3.

Now Pheasant Lane Mall--which was initially skittish to the idea of having a stop nearby where commuters would mooch off their parking lots--has gotten warm to the idea of hosting the border commuter rail stop and turning over some of its parking (I'm guessing that's the detached lot closest to Middlesex Rd. on the MA side of the border) for officially-sanctioned commuter capacity. Or...if they eventually need it...start going vertical so everyone has basically limitless capacity expansion. The stop would more or less be a rehash of the Spit Brook Rd. side, except for the platforms and parking being entirely on the MA side of the border and Exit 36 being the most direct access point instead of Exit 1. It would be called Tyngsboro/Route 3 or something like that, but it's "Pheasant Lane Mall" by any other name.

Town of Tyngsboro doesn't really have a town center to speak of. The Route 3A bridge over the Merrimack is pretty much the closest thing to a pocket of density there is (and it's nearly barren), so there's no real walk-up stop to be had. LRTA Route 10 hugs the east bank of the Merrimack with hourly service, terminating at the liquor store straddling the state line. Wrong side of the river for reaching Pheasant Lane or N. Chelmsford, but it already gives people in Dracut an excellent straight shot into Lowell station. Route 19 does go from Lowell to the Mall up Middlesex Rd., hugging the west bank of the Merrimack the whole way...but right now that's only a seasonal shopper's special bus. If they instituted it as a full-time route that would be the one that sweeps points north of Vinal Sq. to Tyngsboro/Pheasant Lane station. Though they might be better off fiddling around with Route 10 so it makes a more complete sweep around Tyngsboro hitting east-of-the-bridge before proceeding up to the Mall. There's got to be a state-line liquor store on the west bank to substitute for the tax-free "beer bus" to Ayotte's.


Tyngsboro/Pheasant Lane should also draw well from Dunstable and Pepperell. Straight shot down Route 113 for 7 miles from Pepperell Ctr., 1 exit northbound (contraflow direction) on 3 to Exit 36, and to the platform. No buses out there, but Pepperell is population 11,000...not inignificant for that relatively empty part of the state..

^ I got a little lost in the should-happen vs what-people-expected vs what-the-plan-is perspectives.

So is the current plan (link?) that there'll be 3 new stations on a Lowell Line extension to expand capacity and maybe serve Nashua (if the town helps 'cause NH State won't?
- Nashua "Center" (Walkable)
- Pheasant Lane / (functioning as both "Tyngsboro" and "Rt 3 Park & Ride Diverter")
- North Chelmsford (Lowell Transit)

Extension into RI is governed by the "1989 Pilgrim Partnership Agreement". Proposed Plaistow extension is also supposedly modeled after this agreement. Trouble is important stuff doesn't seem to ever be published online, just referred to.

Arlington wrote:^ I got a little lost in the should-happen vs what-people-expected vs what-the-plan-is perspectives.

So is the current plan (link?) that there'll be 3 new stations on a Lowell Line extension to expand capacity and maybe serve Nashua (if the town helps 'cause NH State won't?
- Nashua "Center" (Walkable)
- Pheasant Lane / (functioning as both "Tyngsboro" and "Rt 3 Park & Ride Diverter")
- North Chelmsford (Lowell Transit)

North Chelmsford...officially, yes. That was always part of the plan, site selection more or less set.

Downtown Nashua was originally part of the plan. Then it wasn't and the T was going to terminate at the Spit Brook Rd. site + layover while downtown probably waited until the Cap Corridor got funded. Then it was back on again with this most recent study.

Tyngsboro/Pheasant Lane was originally *desired* as part of the plan the first time downtown Nashua was part of the plan. But the Mall owners didn't like the parking impacts. Then the whole Spit Brook Rd. compromise thing came and went. Then when the public meetings for this latest Downtown Nashua plan started only a couple years ago, the Mall surprised everyone by being receptive to borderline-encouraging of the site by their property.


I have no idea how many studies have been studied, re-studied, and re-re-studied through the course of this sequence. There have been a whole lot of study permutations.

Basically, as of today Tyngsboro is "unofficial" because this latest surge to get it all moving began before the Mall re-entered the picture. But on the now pretty good odds that they'll go for it, it's a fait accompli. Neither the T nor New Hampshire can pass up a direct Route 3 park-and-ride. Downtown Nashua can't handle all that traffic where the train station is positioned. N. Chelmsford can't handle all that traffic via Exit 33. And N. Chelmsford to Downtown Nashua is 9.5 miles, one of the longest stationless gaps on the commuter rail. There needs to be a spacer there. Especially when the spacer (MA side of the Mall or Spit Brook Rd. side of the Mall) are the only places to accept highway traffic without slamming local roads. I'd say by now they'll take the Nashua study without it, start whatever the next steps are, and then tack on Tyngsboro. It's happened before. When the Old Colony lines got restored Braintree was supposed to be the innermost station. But Quincy Center ended up getting added pretty late in design and ended up becoming the dominant inside-128 stop on those lines even though it wasn't supposed to exist when the project was first greenlit. By the time shovels and track machines were actually trawling the corridor in '95 or so doing the construction, people had already forgotten there was a time where Quincy Center wasn't supposed to be part of the built. I would imagine that's what we're looking at here.

I think folks are overestimating the likely relief CR will have on I95 I93, and RT3,. I just don't see a significant number of people leaving their cars behind to go to MA. Its a nice option to have if you're going to Boston....in fact its kind if nice if you're going to Providence too. The difference between RI CR and NH CR is that its not needed or wanted for destinations in NH. It would cause you more trouble and probably more money to take the train to NH than it would help.
If the state was really excited about CR we would have built welcome centers at every Downeaster station with a certain local chain's bar and grill with an adjoining state liquor store like we do on our highways.

Especially considering the vast majority of that commuter traffic is most likely going to the 495, 128 belts or Route 3 North.

Speaking for myself, I work at Hanscom AFB so the CR extension doesn't help me. DIRECTLY, that is. I have to leave my house before 5am to beat the traffic. It would be nice to have some flexibility in that and extending the Lowell line could pull some cars off US-3.

There must be new management at the Pheasant Lane Mall since they were ADAMANT about being uncooperative (my ex worked for their staff and used to hear her former boss who would get quoted in the papers - they didn't want commuters in their lots AT ALL). Maybe someone saw the possibility of a garage where they could get 'free money' - state aid in building it and a percentage of the take for something that requires little manpower.

I still think the hidden gem is building it to Manchester to allow for reverse commutes to the mill, hotel, convention, university and sports facilities in town.

p42thedowneaster wrote:I think folks are overestimating the likely relief CR will have on I95 I93, and RT3,. I just don't see a significant number of people leaving their cars behind to go to MA. Its a nice option to have if you're going to Boston....in fact its kind if nice if you're going to Providence too. The difference between RI CR and NH CR is that its not needed or wanted for destinations in NH. It would cause you more trouble and probably more money to take the train to NH than it would help.

I'd be pretty sure you'll see some express service once there's the yard space to support the extra frequencies. Can't say for sure, but you're likely to see NH trains operating like train 310 does,
Lowell at 7:46,
N.Billerica at 7:54,
Woburn/Anderson 8:05 and
North Station at 8:26.
40 Minutes from Lowell to North Station at the peak of rush hour.

p42thedowneaster wrote:I think folks are overestimating the likely relief CR will have on I95 I93, and RT3,. I just don't see a significant number of people leaving their cars behind to go to MA. Its a nice option to have if you're going to Boston....in fact its kind if nice if you're going to Providence too. The difference between RI CR and NH CR is that its not needed or wanted for destinations in NH. It would cause you more trouble and probably more money to take the train to NH than it would help.
If the state was really excited about CR we would have built welcome centers at every Downeaster station with a certain local chain's bar and grill with an adjoining state liquor store like we do on our highways.

Well, don't forget...Route 3 is not an New Hampshire advocacy. Nor are either of the 2 extension stops south of downtown Nashua. That was a native Massachusetts priority they were looking at pursuing as de-coupled from hand-in-hand NH cooperation as possible, for the following reasons:

1) The Lowell Line does not have a layover yard, with all shift-change trains needing to deadhead or run as revenue extras to/from BET. It's the only commuter rail line on the system other than Stoughton (which is only 8.5 miles from the nearest layover at Readville) which has no layover. And that's because the old layover at Bleachery freight yard is unsuitable for reactivation due to the number of very busy freight tracks that have to be fouled to get between Lowell Station and the layover. So with the NH Main operating seriously under-capacity, service increases to Lowell alone were dependent on finding new--and more spacious--environs for a layover.

2) Lowell Station is crowded and getting moreso by the day, so the N. Chelmsford/Vinal Sq. stop and Tyngsboro/Route 3 were going to be needed someday as load-distributors. Especially with the pre-existing LRTA buses being able to scoop up from large areas of Chelmsford, Dracut, and Tyngsboro with easier trips than they'd have to Lowell Station. There is a pre-existing transit skeleton to build off of through the region, and the combo of the extension stops and increased bus service would've brought bigger immediate relief and walk-up patronage than your typically isolated suburban extension stop.

3) It's in MassDOT's purview to divert as many NH plates off 3 at the border to make the backups between Lowell Connector and Route 128 ever so slightly less painful and more resilient to growth. After all, they just spent a kajillion dollars less than a dozen years ago widening the highway, and it's already running over-capacity. They are not going back and doing another set of widening out there. 6 lanes is as big as it's ever going to get.


When Rich Davey took over as MBTA GM he stated pretty emphatically at one of his meet-and-greet Q&A's with the public that if he could choose one commuter rail extension to pursue with gusto financial constraints be-damned (and, mind you...he couldn't, because Gov. Patrick was over the moon with his fever dreams of South Coast Rail)...this would be it. And hence, the "Spit Brook Rd. era". Pan Am had finally turned a leaf and become passenger-receptive, with negotiations already under way for trackage rights to Concord to be bundled in as one of the conditions for those Green Line Extension/Northpoint-related land swaps around BET. So Spit Brook Rd. and that blighted industrial lot behind Old Navy that was to be the layover yard site were mostly an MBTA/PAR joint to get the extension built--and satisfy the above 3 goals--with as little NH participation as possible, and as little NIMBY potential as possible. Because at this point Nashua wasn't keen on downtown. And the Mall was hostile to the parking encroachment on the Tyngsboro side of the border.

Basically, the big box stores and fast food restaurants would've been ecstatic at the business if they had guarantees against parking encroachment, and it would've required little more than sign-off from NH. Layover would've been a T expense, the < 1 mile of NH track work would've been a PAR expense laundered by the T, and station construction costs would've been sought by Fed grants. The whole thing was designed to be accomplishable without NH needing to lift a finger. Obviously, things have changed now. Nashua's gone gung-ho about downtown, the layover takes a derelict slice of the freight yard, and the Mall has surprised everyone by putting out feelers so they may be able to get the best of both worlds with the Exit 36/Tyngsboro site at the Mall.


So...take it into account. Nashua decided independently that downtown commuter rail matters. But MassDOT has never wavered at this being a primarily in-district project primarily designed for pan-Lowell Line and pan-Route 3 corridor benefit. It was always of narrow-ish benefit to direct NH-Boston commutes, with that being more of a Capital Corridor thingy still very far from being decided.

One correction - Lowell never had a layover yard in the Bleachery Yard. The last layover
yard was actually in the station. And before the new station was built, trains layed over
in the old station.

Dave

For what it's worth, I'll add that I've been reading about studies being done concerning Exit 36 on US-3. For those that don't know, there is NO southbound off-ramp to get you to the road that dumps you in front of one of the Pheasant Lane Mall entrances. Now they're talking about FINALLY building a looping ramp so that Exit 36 can be a "full" interchange, get traffic off of Spit Brook Road and make it easier to get to a Park and Ride scenario at a train station on the NH/MA border using some of the Mall's land.

This would dovetail SO nicely with a downtown Nashua stop (rail yard next door) and a South Nashua/Tyngsboro stop (plenty of parking space, drop dead easy access from the highway).