Maine Eastern Railroad (MERR) Discussion

MEC407 wrote:

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Amtrak is NOT and NEVER WILL BE interested in operating the Downeaster to Rockland

So Boardman ran his OCS to Rockland just for funzies?

They had no interest in Portland either. Portland wasn't part of their route strategy. Maine wanted it, Maine worked for it, Maine paid for it, and now they're here. It's a state-sponsored/state-managed train. You can't compare it to "traditional" Amtrak. Philosophically speaking, it isn't all that different from the days when Amtrak was the contracted operator of MBTA and VRE commuter rail. The biggest difference is that Maine leases rolling stock from Amtrak and uses the Amtrak brand. Amtrak is the contracted operator of the service, and as such they do what NNEPRA's contract tells them to do. If they weren't willing to (e.g. the money wasn't enough to make it worthwhile), they wouldn't have agreed to the contract.

I'm definitely of the same mindset as MEC407. Especially given the contract negotiations outstanding for Maine Eastern there could be all manner of things coming or going. In fact it makes even more sense that MDOT would encourage this kind of a tour with Amtrak especially if they suspected that PAR was about to bid for the freight service to/from Rockland and they knew they would need a new passenger operator.

I'm not going to get into whether it is legitimately a "good" idea for the Downeaster to extend some of its trains to Rockland, but the state has invested a tremendous amount of money in the Rockland Branch to allow passenger service. The Downeaster would allow that investment to be fully utilized in a way excursion service does not, by providing year round service. Furthermore, not only is Rockland is a far more appealing destination than Augusta or Waterville, the branch has already been completely rebuilt to passenger standards. Rebuilding Brunswick to Augusta would cost easily over 30 million, and take years to complete.

Amtrak to Rockland would have no impact on the layover facility, because (if implemented intelligently) the route extension would be east/west round trips by having trains from Boston continue past Brunswick to Rockland and back to Boston mid day.

I have a hard time seeing how going to Rockland, a city of 7,000 (+ the tourists)would make more financial sense than going to the capital, a city of nearly 20,000 with UMaine as well. But it's not my money.

I think you're all putting the cart before the horse. Excursions to Rockland aren't going to leave and if Amtrak ever is extended again it will go north.

newpylong wrote:I have a hard time seeing how going to Rockland, a city of 7,000 (+ the tourists)would make more financial sense than going to the capital, a city of nearly 20,000 with UMaine as well. But it's not my money.

I don't disagree, but the money has — for the most part — already been spent. Good decision, bad decision, it doesn't matter because it's already been done. 115 LB CWR and new ties. All new crossings. Renovated station with shore power. Amtrak could start serving Rockland next month if they wanted to.

I'm not advocating for or against this; just pointing out some of the reasons why/how it might happen.

I do think year-round service to Rockland would be a big stretch, but seasonal service seems like it could be extremely viable. Anyone who's ever driven to Rockland between Memorial Day and Labor Day knows how bad the traffic on Route 1 is. I have no doubt that people would use the service during those months. And yes, I think they'd be more likely to use it if it was operated by Amtrak. As always, that's not a criticism of Maine Eastern — I've said many times that they do a great job — but Amtrak is a brand known nationally and worldwide. It's no easy task to compete with that.

I'd like to see a package deal to visit the prison at Thomaston And that could be a year-round option. Seriously, though, service to the Rockland Branch seems to be not needed in the off-season. And a little marketing of package deals up there with places like the Samoset could prove to be quite attractive for summer visitors. Could connecting bus service between Belfast/Camden and Rockland work out in the summertime?

newpylong wrote:I have a hard time seeing how going to Rockland, a city of 7,000 (+ the tourists)would make more financial sense than going to the capital, a city of nearly 20,000 with UMaine as well. But it's not my money.

I think you're all putting the cart before the horse. Excursions to Rockland aren't going to leave and if Amtrak ever is extended again it will go north.

Yes while Rockland is definitely not Augusta it's also not the only town/city along the line with a potential ridership base. You have Bath, Wiscasset, Newcastle, Waldoboro, and Thomaston as other potential stops. As long as it will take 90 mins+ vs. 70 to reach Rockland the train might as well make those extra stops. And with the close proximity of the tracks to the town centers the walkability factor to/from a station will be quite strong. There probably wouldn't be a need for no more than a handful of parking spaces at each stop.

As a quick side question (though this would be better asked in the Amtrak forum) if Maine Eastern/Morristown & Erie had used at least 1 ex-NJT Comet coach why couldn't Maine or NNEPRA acquire some of their own for the Downeaster? Or down the line maybe lease/buy the Amtrak California Comet I coaches once the new corridor coaches enter service in a few years? If the DE's equipment needs are dependent on whatever is available on Amtrak's end I could see that forcing the issue at some point when increased ridership needs on the NEC need to be met. Even if a NYC-Maine through train becomes a reality that would be an NEC extension run with equipment from the NEC pool?

The bottom line on equipment is that expected acquisitions of new rolling stock should ease Amtrak's shortage of single level rolling stock in the East within the next 24 months. Any service change is likely to occur after the Brunswick Layover facility is built (and yes I do think its going to get built). As far as acquisition whether that's for Maine Eastern or NNEPRA for the moment they have found it to be more advantageous to them to sue leased (Amtrak/NNEPRA) or company owned (Maine Eastern) equipment. Acquisition does not seem to be in the cards for NNEPRA.

I would re-emphasize again that the "oddball" scenario of PAR low bidding the freight rights on this line seems more and more likely to me every time I think about it. It makes sense in a lot of ways for them and would line up with their current attempts to grow their business organically.

If we wanted to get really radical about this we could presuppose that PAR would also be willing to run the tourist excursion business too in order to enable them to take the freight operations back. I could see PAR 1 and PAR 2 playing a nice role in that operation. "Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction".

Rockingham Racer wrote:I'd like to see a package deal to visit the prison at Thomaston

The Thomaston prison was demolished 13 years ago, but maybe tourists could do archeological digs on the former site.

You want the Cliff Notes' version:

If the Downeaster goes to Rockland it will NEVER go to Augusta or points north. And no amount of NNEPRA fun bucks is going to make them wag the tail over all the much bigger prospective routes competing for Amtrak attention and equipment. It does not work that way. Choose your expansions carefully. Some folks on this thread are really starting to lose sight of the notion of prioritization when all passenger service in Maine is dependent on a national carrier, a national carrier's equipment, and a national carrier's contingent of states proposing to pay for corridor routes. We're really getting into fantasyland if buying into the notion that "cut 'dem checks" is absolute and happens in a vacuum to any of NNEPRA's whims. There are many, many NNEPRA's across the country competing for Amtrak mindshare.


I'll say it again:

At minimum, if NNEPRA wants to have its cake on a branchline it has to solve for the scarce resources that are Amtrak's equipment pool by buying their own trainsets Carolinian-style. Amfleets are not an inexhaustible resource.

At minimum, the Maine Eastern shuttles need to show a big scale-up and a lot more demonstrable ridership for a trial period of several years before they can even think about bringing Amtrak there. Think Cape Flyer and its chances of reviving the Cape Codder.

And there is no way north-of-Portland is going to get a Virginia-style spider map of forking routes going every which way unless NNEPRA funds everything themselves and runs it as commuter rail. The populations aren't even remotely comparable. Demand 'intangibles' can't be substantiated to Amtrak with numbers. And it is in no way operationally comparable to the NEC branches. Some acknowledgment of that reality would be nice, since it would help restore focus on prioritization (i.e. Augusta).

MEC407 wrote:

Rockingham Racer wrote:I'd like to see a package deal to visit the prison at Thomaston

The Thomaston prison was demolished 13 years ago, but maybe tourists could do archeological digs on the former site.

Shows you how long it's been since I've been up US 1 thru that burg. We used to take the cut-off south of there, over to Camden. I like your archeological twist though!!

Ok, ok... uka-uka-ukay....
So branching off entire routes for whole trains North of Portland is "out," at least for the foreseeable future. Got that.
The question then becomes: "Could a through-to-Rockland routed sleeper be handed off to ME by Amtrak at Brunswick from an Augusta-bound train?"
What are the implications for both Amtrak and ME?Is there any precedent for such a thing today? What requirements would ME need to meet that they don't already in order to be able to take through sleepers from Amtrak? I'm certain there would be crew requirements for the sleepers themselves, that's a given. Sleeper crews would most likely be Amtrak all the way through.
Since both entities handle passengers now, one would surmise that it be mostly a matter of trackwork standards, crew assignments, scheduling, and certification paperwork to make it happen... as well as equipment availability.
What about through-to-Rockland coaches (as opposed to sleepers) splitting off?
It seems that there's at least a chance that, depending on what exactly transpires with the upcoming contract bidding process, that a longer-distance train from, say, NYC through to Rockland with sleeper service might be in the offing sometime in the future SEPARATE from the current DE. Maybe not tomorrow, but I would put it in the "foreseeable future" category, given track conditions Brunswick to Rockland being already at a higher standard. Even if Amtrak goes full-barrel toward Augusta, the availability of the Rockland branch as an addition to Augusta service remains tantalizingly practical.

Rockingham Racer wrote:I'd like to see a package deal to visit the prison at Thomaston And that could be a year-round option. Seriously, though, service to the Rockland Branch seems to be not needed in the off-season. And a little marketing of package deals up there with places like the Samoset could prove to be quite attractive for summer visitors. Could connecting bus service between Belfast/Camden and Rockland work out in the summertime?

The Maine state prison has moved to Warren, but the prison store still remains on route 1 in Thomaston. This store is a "must stop" for anyone passing through town. Lots of great items hand-crafted by inmates of the prison. Great place for Christmas shopping gifts and reasonable prices.
Unfortunately its a good walk to the train tracks.
here's the map: https://www.google.com/maps?ll=44.07750 ... 5&t=h&z=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rockingham Racer wrote:Could connecting bus service between Belfast/Camden and Rockland work out in the summertime?

Yeah, If you don't mind taking an hour or so.. In Camden, from just southwest (highway west) of the stop sign at School St. through to about the intersection with Mountain St. and Central St., traffic moves with the speed of volcanic lava crossing a field.. No good way around it either..

Concord Coach has a daily run from Orono to Boston - Logan with stops in Belfast, Camden/Rockport, and Rockland.. http://www.concordcoachlines.com/index. ... ast-boston. Perhaps something could be worked out with them?

newpylong wrote:I have a hard time seeing how going to Rockland, a city of 7,000 (+ the tourists)would make more financial sense than going to the capital, a city of nearly 20,000 with UMaine as well. But it's not my money.

I'm not sure how many of you all are familiar with Augusta beyond knowing its Maine's Capital, but speaking as someone who has taken several college courses at the University of Maine at Augusta, shopped and had dinners in the huge malls in the Augusta hills just off I95 that were built in the 1990s, and also throughly explored the 'historic downtown' area where the tracks are currently buried as a parking lot, I can assure that it got the nickname "Disgusta" for a reason. There is a strange quietness in the air around those buried downtown tracks, because the economic heart of Augusta has long left the old downtown, and is now in the malls just off I95.

Using the UMA as a reason for passenger service to Augusta might make sense from an outside perspective, but UMA cannot be compared to Bowdoin or UNH as a potential source for many college students taking the train. UMA is much farther from the tracks than Bowdoin and UNH. Remember, this is not UMaine Orono we're talking about. UMA has no on campus housing, so basically every UMA student has to drive there. Also, while the vast majority of Bowdoin students are from places all over the country and world (and a huge number from MA), UMA's student body is well over 95% Maine residents, mostly low income, many middle aged women, single parents, etc. Augusta's population size (which is smaller than Brunswick's by the way) is unimportant if its residents lack the affluence to generate a respectable number of Boston-bound day trippers.

To put into perspective the financial differences I'm talking about, yearly tuition and fees for a full time UMA student is $7,500, however, 85.7 percent of full-time students receive financial, an average of $5,579 granted per student. On the other hand, yearly tuition and fees at Bowdoin is $59,900, and over 55% of Bowdoin students receive no financial aid of any kind. While UMA has a much higher total number of students enrolled in one capacity or another, only 1773 of them are full time students, almost identical to Bowdoin's student body of 1,775 (all Bowdoin students are full time).

Also, many UMA students never set foot in Augusta; besides also having a Bangor campus, UMA students can take classes through "University College" centers in Brunswick, Ellsworth, East Millinocket, Houlton, Norway/South Paris, Penquis/Dover-Foxcroft, Rockland, Rumford, and Saco. As far as I know, Bowdoin classes are only offered in Brunswick. Also UMA offers many online courses, and "ITV courses" which are broadcast "via Interactive Television" that can be watched live or later on at the students' on their computers from, meaning they don't have to go on campus. I didn't mean to go so in depth, but I just want to make it clear that UMA should not be part of the argument for extending the Downeaster to Augusta, and neither should Augusta's population.

I want people who think the Downeaster to Brunswick was a bad idea and Augusta should have been the priority to remember that Augusta's population is smaller than Brunswick's, Augusta has a median per capita income not only $4,635 less than Brunswick's, but $3,161 below the state's average. The numbers just don't add up for it to be a potential source of "southbound" passengers, and there's no way your average passenger from MA and NH would put visiting Maine's State House ahead of the myriad of tourist attractions in the Rockland area. Maine is a low population state, and will not be able to generate large numbers of Maine resident passengers north on Portland / Freeport / Brunswick. Considering this, any Downeaster extension should be rooted in the idea of bringing people from MA and NH to Maine. And Rockland beats Augusta's ass in tourism to an absurd degree. And the track is already in place in maintained to passenger rail standards. And the Downeaster's current schedule could already allow the option of a single daily Brunswick to Rockland round trip in the hours spent idling in Brunswick everyday.

therudycometh wrote:The Maine Eastern Railroad's 2015 excursion schedule has been announced! http://www.maineeasternrailroad.com/2015schedule" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Glad to see Maine Eastern is actively promoting their future on the Rockland Branch despite its uncertainty! I think it's a smart move to run the passenger trains without attempting the impossible as far as coordinating with Amtrak's current schedule. It would be great to see Downeaster schedule adjustments in attempt to allow reliably transferring to ME trains and giving those riders a reasonable amount of time in Rockland before heading back to Brunswick a reality, but until then, this schedule seems like the best way to do things.

Now that you're gearing up for the 2015 season, maybe it's a good time to paint 3573 while you're at it! With the news of the RFP for the Rockland Branch, I'll say with complete sincerity that I'd be happy to help with the painting process in any reasonable capacity. Of course, my painting experience is limited to high school art class and my family's porch and garage, but I really want to photograph classic unit in a handsome fresh coat of Maine Eastern colors haha. I've been waiting to say goodbye to its decaying CN zebra stripes since I watched it set off in Brunswick by Guilford more than a decade ago, more than 24 hours after they had been expected to arrive according to my railroad friends/sources. I really wish your company the best. Growing up, I totally took the Maine Coast RR for granted before I had Safe Handling to compare them too.

One quick note on the schedule... While I begrudgingly understand why those in charge of the Downeaster schedules decided to contradict the official Timetable directions of east to west from Brunswick to Boston, is there any reason passenger trains on the Rockland Branch need to be called "northbound" and "southbound" when the branch is both timetable east/west and geographically east/west?