• Official Valley Railroad Thread (VALE)

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

Moderators: MEC407, NHN503

  by Cosmo
 
eehiv wrote:Where is the next run-around planned north of Goodspeed? Will it be at Haddam Meadows? EH
To the best of my knowledge, there is no "next runaround planned" at this time.
Completely unofficially, though, I have heard the idea of a siding at Arnolds, (approx 1 mi south of Haddam Meadows) tossed around.
There's still quite a ways to go yet before the mainline will get to anyplace that would necessitate a run around anyplace other than the current run around at Goodspeeds.
  by shadyjay
 
I could see a spur track at Arnolds but not a runaround. There are still remnants of such a track up there, including switch timbers. Haddam Meadows seems like a better place for a runaround, being ~ 4 miles north of GD. Regardless, most likely a long ways out. For those that don't recall/remember, regular train service to GD (well, south side of 82) began in 1995, was suspended from 1996 until 2000 or so, and the runaround was put in shortly after that. It seemed like the longest backup move ever, from GD down to DR, but that's the way things went for years.

Until the marina, backfill, and shad shack bridge are all taken care of, I can't see any push for a run-around, or any non-main tracks north of GD north yard limits.

BTW, any progress on the marina or backfill issues?
  by bwparker1
 
ebtmikado wrote:I don't get the "definitely geared to an older crowd" comment. The tykes blowing the locomotive horns and changing the block signal aspects appeared to be members of the under 12 set.

Lee
That was really the only thing for kids, those two features, and my kids enjoyed them for ~ 5 minutes in total.

I'm just making the point that in general the museum train was geared towards adults. Old timetables, photos, documents and other railroadania aren't going to hold the attention of children in the newborn to 12 range. I was not trying to bad mouth the effort, rather, point out that it was more geared towards teens and adults. I am appreciative that the train was able to stop in Connecticut.
  by Cosmo
 
shadyjay wrote:I could see a spur track at Arnolds but not a runaround. There are still remnants of such a track up there, including switch timbers.
Ok, I would have to do some digging, but I'm pretty sure there was, at one time, a full passing siding at Arnolds- (assuming I have the correct location in mind.) From what I can remember between site inspection, photographs, and picking the brains of my elders [ ;) ] Arnolds had a rather interesting track arrangement. Maybe someone else (Lee? Brendan?) can elaborate further or correct me if necessary.
shadyjay wrote: Haddam Meadows seems like a better place for a runaround, being ~ 4 miles north of GD. Regardless, most likely a long ways out.
Total agreement on all points.
shadyjay wrote:For those that don't recall/remember, regular train service to GD (well, south side of 82) began in 1995, was suspended from 1996 until 2000 or so, and the runaround was put in shortly after that. It seemed like the longest backup move ever, from GD down to DR, but that's the way things went for years.

Until the marina, backfill, and shad shack bridge are all taken care of, I can't see any push for a run-around, or any non-main tracks north of GD north yard limits.

BTW, any progress on the marina or backfill issues?
Even once those hurdles are met, it's tough to see much immediate change in the track arrangement. For one, the only regular train to go that far north would be the dinner train, and that's iffy at best. As it is, it's current schedule would preclude it going much further North than just shy of the Marina as is.
The most likely scenario for "Haddam Yard" (as it's now called) is the current track/inspection car operations and occasional special trains as each hurdle is met.
Sometime in that "long ways out" we may see specials run up to Haddam Meadows for whatever events go on up there, (the Fall machine show, Riverfest, various what-have-yous ...) but I can't see "regular" operations going up there. It's just too far out, man.
  by shadyjay
 
Cosmo wrote:It's just too far out, man.
True, but what a "trip" it would be, man! :P
  by Cosmo
 
shadyjay wrote:
Cosmo wrote:It's just too far out, man.
True, but what a "trip" it would be, man! :P
Oh yeah, I mean, I'm not saying there won't be any trips at all, rather, the ones that DO go out there would be "specials" like the MBRRE, NHRTHA and Lerro charters, as well as trains for the above mentioned events.
But,... speaking of "far out, man..."
...imagine if someday specials are able to go all the way up through The Narrows to Maromas and possibly Middletown! Can you say "Valley's own version of the Notch Trains," man? :-D
  by daylight4449
 
Cosmo wrote:
shadyjay wrote:
Cosmo wrote:It's just too far out, man.
True, but what a "trip" it would be, man! :P
Oh yeah, I mean, I'm not saying there won't be any trips at all, rather, the ones that DO go out there would be "specials" like the MBRRE, NHRTHA and Lerro charters, as well as trains for the above mentioned events.
But,... speaking of "far out, man..."
...imagine if someday specials are able to go all the way up through The Narrows to Maromas and possibly Middletown! Can you say "Valley's own version of the Notch Trains," man? :-D
Alright, let's entertain that idea then. Assuming you ran to Middletown, what would you need? Will there be a need for water infrastructure and other equipment (i.e coaches) for the service so primary operations aren't effected by a day-trip? What's the distance, and how could the extra mileage translate into fuel costs and maintenance? Would it be more economical to run it with one of the center cabs, or would the existing steam roster be able to accommodate such a run? Assuming you run with steam, do you leave the engine as is, or do you institute draft and firing modifications to increase efficiency to reduce fuel consumption? What would the crew requirements be, and how would that effect the operating costs? What sort of maintenance requirements would be necessary for a run to Middletown? Then what sort of time-frame would the trip be? Most people can really only handle a two hour event as far as attention span goes, so what do you offer to convince the people that do ride that the ticket price is worth the dollar they're spending on the trip, so they generate repeat business? Do you bring the track to higher standards to cover higher speeds, as to reduce trip time, or do you run with the standard operating practice as it presently exists? Do you stop in Middletown for say, half an hour, to let people get off and stretch their legs, or do you just run-around and go home once you get there?
  by Cosmo
 
Ok, well, these are all good questions which would need to be asked at some point, but I think I can touch on some of the more obvious ones:
daylight4449 wrote: Alright, let's entertain that idea then. Assuming you ran to Middletown, what would you need?
A train! :-D
daylight4449 wrote:Will there be a need for water infrastructure and other equipment (i.e coaches) for the service so primary operations aren't effected by a day-trip?
Of course there will!
daylight4449 wrote:What's the distance, and how could the extra mileage translate into fuel costs and maintenance?
1) The Valley leases 22.7 mi from the State from MP 0 to were it meets the P&W (Railroad) at P&W (Pratt & Whitney) in Maromas, with PAX rights all the way to Hartford. Essex is at MP 4, to that brings us down to roughly 18.7 mi, but then it's close as you please to another 4 mi to Middletown anyway, so you get roughly 22-25 miles one way.
2) Like they always do. More operation means more cost.
daylight4449 wrote:Would it be more economical to run it with one of the center cabs,
Of COURSE it would, diesels are always more efficient/cost effective, but:
Cosmo wrote: ones that DO go out there would be "specials" like the MBRRE, NHRTHA and Lerro charters, as well as trains for the above mentioned events.
Same rule applies here, so you'd really WANT steam on most anything going up there.
daylight4449 wrote: or would the existing steam roster be able to accommodate such a run?
Given we're talking at least 10 yrs in the future (for Middletown, at least) I think it's safe to assume that VRR would likely have had time to insure that at least 2 locomotives are operable and at least one would be available for said run. Chances are good that if the Valley ever 1) restores 97 to operation and/or acquires an additional operable steam engine, that it would have happened by that time.
daylight4449 wrote: Assuming you run with steam, do you leave the engine as is, or do you institute draft and firing modifications to increase efficiency to reduce fuel consumption? What would the crew requirements be, and how would that effect the operating costs?
These are ongoing concerns/considerations for VRR's engineering/mechanical dept. Beyond whatever they do to keep the engines as efficient as they possibly can at present, I see no major changes on the horizon even with such a trip pending.
daylight4449 wrote:What sort of maintenance requirements would be necessary for a run to Middletown?
The same as any on or during any given week/weekend of operation.
daylight4449 wrote: Then what sort of time-frame would the trip be?
Bring a lunch. :wink:
daylight4449 wrote:Most people can really only handle a two hour event as far as attention span goes, so what do you offer to convince the people that do ride that the ticket price is worth the dollar they're spending on the trip, so they generate repeat business?
See my above answer re: "special trains".
daylight4449 wrote:Do you bring the track to higher standards to cover higher speeds, as to reduce trip time, or do you run with the standard operating practice as it presently exists?
Improving the track for higher speed IS the SOP. As it is, the entire line North of GD will have to be "improved" just to get train over it at all.
daylight4449 wrote:Do you stop in Middletown for say, half an hour, to let people get off and stretch their legs, or do you just run-around and go home once you get there?
Stopping at Middletown would likely include a run-around, photo ops, maybe a chance to visit Amatto's Hobbies, grab a quick lunch... all subject to change, of course, (which may happen many times over in the roughly 10-15 years between now and when it actually happens.) :wink: Here's another "think" for you, Dylan, ...
Actually going all the way to Middletown (or anywhere North of Maromas/Pratt & Whitney,) would undoubtedly require co-ordination with the P&WRR, so... taking that as a given, what are the chances for a photo op on the swing bridge? :-D
  by TomNelligan
 
Stopping at Middletown would likely include a run-around, photo ops, maybe a chance to visit Amatto's Hobbies, grab a quick lunch...
If the Eli Cannon's pub on Main Street just up the hill from the diamond is on the tour, I'm in! :-)
  by bwparker1
 
TomNelligan wrote:
Stopping at Middletown would likely include a run-around, photo ops, maybe a chance to visit Amatto's Hobbies, grab a quick lunch...
If the Eli Cannon's pub on Main Street just up the hill from the diamond is on the tour, I'm in! :-)
Me too! That place is the bomb.
  by shadyjay
 
Here's my "idea" for such a train. I'd call it the Middletown Flyer. I would not run steam power on it regularly... instead I'd get a pair of FL-9s. The consist would be a first class car, a cafe/lounge car (a restored "Toreador" would be nice), a few coaches, and an open car (similar to the "Riverview" but have the seats go parallel to the windows ... basically two long "benches". The train would depart at 11am and return at some point around 3 or 4. It would also pick up passengers at GD. At Middletown, passengers could detrain at a platform alongside deKoven Drive, maybe near the Harborpark Tunnel. Granted this would be a little further away from Eli's but quite convenient to Amatos and "central" Main Street. A layover of maybe an hour or so. Passengers could remain on the train and the train would then pull north, onto the Air Line connector, then back over the Connecticut River swing bridge. Passengers could even just get on in Middletown and go for the swing bridge ride. If the swing bridge isn't an option, then a short turn-around to Cromwell and back could be possible.

Granted, you're not doing a trip like this at 15 mph. I'd say operate at no more than 30 mph. I'm not saying the whole stretch that fast, but definitely through the "woods".

I'd operate this trip on weekends during the fall and Friday-Sunday during the summer. Depending on demand (seeing as its one trip a day), days of operation could be increased as time goes on. So could incremental consist upgrades, such as an observation car "bringing up the makers". Perhaps one weekend a month could be a "steam special" trip.

Seeing as P&W hasn't run south of the area of the Route 9 SB Exit 14 offramp, due to lack of customers, I don't see many P&W gripes with such an operation. Perhaps they'd even be willing to let those 4 miles go. Wait... doesn't ConnDOT actually own the tracks north of Maromas? When was the last time a P&W (or any) train went south of the sewage plant on River Road? HELCO and P&W haven't gotten any service in years.

So there you have it. I haven't dived into exactly how long such a trip would take, but I figured you can make SX-GD (just over 8 miles) in about 35 minutes with current track conditions and operating non-stop. Or at least that was our timing in 1995. If you figure from GD to M[aroma]S is roughly 10 miles, figure another 45 minutes. Then from there to Middletown is about 4 1/2 - 5 miles (MP 5 is near Maromas, MP 0 is at the diamond) and is heavier rail and is relatively straight. So maybe 90 minutes each way, if you account for any additional track improvements on in-service sections. A run-around at Middletown (we'll need a passing track somewhere) would be done during the layover.

Conway Scenic runs their Notch trains at 5 - 5 1/2 hours, with a ~ 1 hour layover up at Crawfords. Every time I've been on that run, it's been pretty crowded - or sold out. And especially in the fall they really pack in the ridership. Granted, the scenery and history along the line is phenomenal. The Valley doesn't have the scenery that the Notch train has, but still its a very scenic route. I don't want to get into a whole VRR vs CSRR debate.
  by red baron
 
Not sure if FL9s and 74/78/80 lb rail play well together.....
  by Cosmo
 
Well, stopping short of saying "impossible," the acquisition of FL9s was given it's due consideration quite some time ago and passed over. Granted, AFAIK CDOT still has more than a couple in storage in (I think) New Haven and I doubt they're going anyplace soon, plus, having the line open to Middletown would certainly be a game changer, but for the time being the Valley has no plans to acquire any FL9s.
They DID just purchase another 80 tonner, and AFAIK the plan is that if it's operable they'll operate it. What, where, when it operates is far beyond my poor powers of clairvoyance. :wink:
* * *
Another thought has occurred to me. The Valley is not the only entity with passenger equipment that makes excursions. P&W has their own set as well and they're at both ends of The Valley. :wink:
  by shadyjay
 
Just for the record, everything in my post was based purely on fantasy. Read: if I was in charge. Obviously I'm not. I'm just throwing out a "what-if" scenario. I don't anticipate an FL-9 ever showing up at Essex, outside of purely display or "just visiting" (at the very most). Then again, I've been wrong before.

Could FL-9s run on 107# rail? I can't imagine the weight of Naugy's rails to be much more than 107#. So you'd have to change out all the rail from GD to MS, as from there to MD is some heavier rail installed at some point during the 80s IIRC. There are still, what, 4 FL-9s in storage at New Haven and those "in the know" have said they're not worth a dime, except as scrap or a display somewhere.
  by Cosmo
 
shadyjay wrote:Just for the record, everything in my post was based purely on fantasy. Read: if I was in charge. Obviously I'm not. I'm just throwing out a "what-if" scenario. I don't anticipate an FL-9 ever showing up at Essex, outside of purely display or "just visiting" (at the very most). Then again, I've been wrong before.
Hey man, it's all groovy with me. We all gotta dream. If you can't dream it, you can't see it. :wink:
shadyjay wrote: Could FL-9s run on 107# rail? I can't imagine the weight of Naugy's rails to be much more than 107#. So you'd have to change out all the rail from GD to MS, as from there to MD is some heavier rail installed at some point during the 80s IIRC. There are still, what, 4 FL-9s in storage at New Haven and those "in the know" have said they're not worth a dime, except as scrap or a display somewhere.
I was not aware of that last part. I guess like the Kinks said: "All of the good ones are taken." :(
  • 1
  • 31
  • 32
  • 33
  • 34
  • 35
  • 48