Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

  by Backshophoss
 
That the M-2's lasted this long is worthy of space at DRM,as the M-2's were the 1st gen of dual modes following the basic
M-series design,the only remaining M-1 pair is a LIRR set at Riverhead(RMLI),saving a "A"+"C" pair(bar car) fits well with
DRM's mission of telling NHRR's history in that part of the region.
It might become a streach to save a set of "triplets"(M-4/M-6) however.
  by MACTRAXX
 
Backshophoss wrote:That the M-2's lasted this long is worthy of space at DRM,as the M-2's were the 1st gen of dual modes following the basic
M-series design,the only remaining M-1 pair is a LIRR set at Riverhead(RMLI),saving a "A"+"C" pair(bar car) fits well with
DRM's mission of telling NHRR's history in that part of the region.
It might become a streach to save a set of "triplets"(M-4/M-6) however.
BSH: There are two pairs of LIRR M1s that were preserved: 9547-9548 is the pair at RMLI in Riverhead and 9745-9746 were saved
for the MTA Transit Museum - only four cars out of a fleet that once had 948 cars as a combined total (770 LIRR and 178 MNCR)

Some M2 cars should be preserved among CT's rail museums - a pair going to DRM and perhaps a pair going to either the Shore
Line Trolley Museum or Naugatuck Railroad and an offer made to other New England rail museums/tourist outlets to see if
there is any other interest in M2 preservation...I agree that the M4/M6 would be a space problem being that they are triplets...
I do also think that the CT owned M2 Bar Cars may be prime candidates for the preservation option and perhaps even a
Hudson Valley region rail museum may also be interested in preserving a pair of NY owned M2 cars...

The M4s are reaching their minimum retirement age of 30 in 2015 but I would like to see some use for the M6 cars as a extra
backup fleet to the M8s or maybe used as a dedicated SLE or perhaps sold to the MBTA for service between Wickford Junction
Providence and Boston converted to 11/25KV AC service and having their 700 VDC capability removed...The M6s are not yet
20 years old and I do agree that they are being retired way before their time and they do still have 10-15 solid years left...

In closing we all agree that the M2 cars have served the New Haven electrified routes well for 40 years and a chosen few
should possibly be preserved before they are all gone forever...

MACTRAXX
  by runningwithscalpels
 
Could the M2's actually be modified to operate at the trolley museum when their time/funds permit? I think that would be more useful than a static display.
  by Backshophoss
 
IF locked in DC mode,it might be possible,Branford(SLE) Museum would need to run the rotary converter along with their normal static inverter
to put enought amps on the wire,may be too HEAVY for their trackage however.
Never run on the tight curves into some of the Carbarns-too long,same could be said for the "S"-motor stored somewhere in New Haven
for Branford.
Scalpels-It's a long shot at best.
Max-Where will the MTA build the Museum Annex to display their pair?
That would be the best bet for a "triplet" set (M-4/6) as well :wink:
  by runningwithscalpels
 
I was just expanding on Maxx's idea - if they could run them then it would be nice if they got a pair - if they're gonna just sit and do nothing, then I'm sure a better home could be found.
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
MACTRAXX wrote:
Backshophoss wrote:That the M-2's lasted this long is worthy of space at DRM,as the M-2's were the 1st gen of dual modes following the basic
M-series design,the only remaining M-1 pair is a LIRR set at Riverhead(RMLI),saving a "A"+"C" pair(bar car) fits well with
DRM's mission of telling NHRR's history in that part of the region.
It might become a streach to save a set of "triplets"(M-4/M-6) however.
BSH: There are two pairs of LIRR M1s that were preserved: 9547-9548 is the pair at RMLI in Riverhead and 9745-9746 were saved
for the MTA Transit Museum - only four cars out of a fleet that once had 948 cars as a combined total (770 LIRR and 178 MNCR)
Don't forget there's also a pair in fire training in Nassau and 9401 is an alcohol car.

If anything, a M-2 bar car would be the one to go for.
  by MACTRAXX
 
R36: Make that eight LIRR M1 cars saved - A 9400 series pair at the Nassau County Fire
Academy and the two LIRR Alcohol/Sandite cars: E401 and E591 (9401 and 9591) that
were converted to this work equipment - I remember learning that the LIRR used odd-
number retired M1s for this use because that they were equipped with lavatories...

Did MNCR do anything similar and use any retired M1a cars - or any other recently
retired passenger cars - as work equipment?

MACTRAXX
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
MACTRAXX wrote: Did MNCR do anything similar and use any retired M1a cars - or any other recently
retired passenger cars - as work equipment?
With the exception of the ACMUs at Danbury, all of the M-1As, ACMUs and Comet I-As were sent to Frontier Co. in Ohio for scrapping.
  by pbass
 
All this talk of DRM obtaining a pair of M2"s is dust in the wind.DRM was promised by MTA/CDOT a pair and they just keep going to scrap.I constantly question the board of DRM when are the M2's coming and no one knows.DRM and the people of MTA/CDOT cannot get it together.I have informed the DRM president I will take on this matter immediately while I still have contacts at MTA.
  by NH2060
 
MACTRAXX wrote:The M4s are reaching their minimum retirement age of 30 in 2015 but I would like to see some use for the M6 cars as a extra backup fleet to the M8s or maybe used as a dedicated SLE or perhaps sold to the MBTA for service between Wickford Junction Providence and Boston converted to 11/25KV AC service and having their 700 VDC capability removed...The M6s are not yet 20 years old and I do agree that they are being retired way before their time and they do still have 10-15 solid years left...
Unless I'm mistaken aren't the M6s the worst performers in the fleet? I remember reading in the paper once that they have the lowest mileage rate between failures/breakdowns. I don't recall within the past 10 years of ever having seen a solid consist of 6-9 cars which can only mean that MNR doesn't trust them out on their own without a set of *ironically* older cars. And they may not be even 20 years old yet, but as Amtrak has seen with the *not even 15 year old* HHP-8s, unreliability knows no age boundaries.

Sending them to the MBTA for the Providence/Wickford Junction trains, and Kingston/Westerly when either the T or RIDOT extends westward, would be a lost cause. RIDOT intends on having its own intra-state commuter rail separate from the MBTA service in RI (Westerly-Providence-Woonsocket) which would certainly be diesel powered so no use there. If the T keeps the Wickford Jct./Kingston, etc. trains after RIDOT trains start running they'll definitely stick with what they have for the ease of having a streamlined fleet. Now South Coast Rail will supposedly require electrification IF it is ever built so maybe then these would be a good fit, but having a 48 car EMU fleet amongst an otherwise purely locomotive and (an eventually all bilevel) coach fleet I don't see the T accomodating a small separate EMU fleet for a 50(?) mile, two branch (Fall River and New Bedford) commuter rail. An electric loco purchase is more likely for that line.

Now on the other hand there is somewhere in the MBTA system where the M6s would be very much ideal: the Fairmount Line which has been gradually upgraded over the past several years with a few new stations and several frequencies added as of this month. And there are a number of reasons why they work work well there:

1) the eventual goal of rapid transit like frequencies as the Indigo Line (still unattainable with the current 5-7 car diesel trains)

2) the current inability to tie the line in with the existing Red Line tracks in South Boston (i'm not sure if that was ever on the table to begin with, but still)

3) aside from a handful of Franklin Line trains, most of the service is strictly Readville-South Station (the latter of which is electrified), a distance of 9.2 miles, so they would be able to be specially dedicated to just that one line (in a way like extended New Canaan Branch shuttles) freeing up the diesel equipment used for other services (i.e. increased Worcester or Beverly frequencies)

4) yes the 2 tracks would have to be electrified (presumably with catenary to tie in with the South Station infrastructure) which isn't cheap, but that would have to be done anyway if the Indigo Line plan were to go through (either with catenary or a 3rd rail) unless the T puts the DMU option on the table again.

5) Since the M-6s are both catenary and 3rd rail equipped (like the Blue Line cars) they can remove the components for one and reorganize/leave the other intact when they'd be converted.

6) With expanded South Station capacity in the future there will be room for additional frequencies (and perhaps even a dedicated track for Readville-South Station shuttles?) which could possibly triple from where they are now if EMUs are brought in.

7) The fact that the M6s are EMUs would improve acceleration and speeds between the very closely spaced stations.

And for the record I'd be surprised if any of this remotely happened, but it is something to think about.
  by Backshophoss
 
The M-6's may/may not have a tap for the 24 kv wire north/east of New Haven,
doudtful that the M-6's may be sold to MBTA/MBCR.
  by Noel Weaver
 
Somebody here stated that the M-2's were the first dual modes, I don't think so, the first dual modes were the old New Haven open platform MU's that came soon after the wires were first put in service and the "Pony Motors" which initiated the electrification way back when. All of the New Haven's electric equipment that ran in and out of Grand Central Terminal were dual modes, they had to be.
As for M-2's at Branford I do not think this would be a good fit, this particular trackage was an old Connecticut Company line and as such the curves are too tight, switches too tight and the M-2's are simply too big and too heavy to be operated here. Best place for a pair of these cars in my opinion is Danbury.
Noel Weaver
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Backshophoss wrote:The M-6's may/may not have a tap for the 24 kv wire north/east of New Haven,
doudtful that the M-6's may be sold to MBTA/MBCR.
They wouldn't be able to handle the crowds for peak-hour Providence trains, regardless. They do 8-car bi-level consists on the busiest runs of the day, and with the new Rotems and Kawasakis-in-rebuild all being rated for 93 MPH it's quite likely Providence is going all bi-level. That's a big loss of seating to not be able to use the cars that seat anywhere from 173-185 passengers depending on individual configuration. Plus, where would they be maintained? Amtrak Southampton yard is the only electrics-servicing facility east of New Haven, and they wouldn't touch old secondhand EMU's even if the T overpaid them.


If the T goes EMU it's almost certainly going to be an MLV power car type deal akin to the NJT/MNRR/LIRR proposals that lets them use their pre-existing coaches to sandwich out the consists. Only their power cars can be stuffed inside a full bi-level carbody instead of the smaller MLV shell and can be built cheaper/lighter for one voltage only instead of three. If those three roads commit to a mega-order of like-minded cars that serves up enough manufacturing economy of scale for the T (maybe even MARC) to jump in with small tack-on orders of their own at much more attractive price point.
  by DutchRailnut
 
more fantasy stuff, all M-2-M-4 -M-6's are already spoken for by FICX the scrapper.
  by Travelsonic
 
DutchRailnut wrote:more fantasy stuff, all M-2-M-4 -M-6's are already spoken for by FICX the scrapper.
From what Pbass is saying, looks more like the mere idea of them getting one is still hanging by one quickly fraying tread - though if it is true the CDOT promised them a pair, chalk up another one for government incompetence. Gotta love how something simple in comparison to dealing with some of the legislative issues plaguing our nation can be botched up so easily.
  • 1
  • 25
  • 26
  • 27
  • 28
  • 29
  • 50