Housatonic Railroad Thread (Maybrook, Berkshire, Pittsfield)

Passenger trains up the Housy to the Berkshires - INSANE.

The Housy project will be the first to go and the New Bedford
project is hanging by a thread.

newpylong wrote:Passenger trains up the Housy to the Berkshires - INSANE.

...up the Housy...off the Housy...into ditches and buildings and rivers next to the Housy...scattered in smoking bits and pieces in the general vicinity of the Housy. My goodness, the options abound!

Moving this discussion to the New England thread. This is not related to the MBTA.

newpylong wrote:Passenger trains up the Housy to the Berkshires - INSANE.

The first 15-odd miles of the Berkshire-- Danbury to New Milford-- probably will see passenger service restored at some point in the next 10 years as an extension of MNR's Danbury Branch. As for the rest of the line, I think we may see service restored, but I do not think that will happen under the current management of the HRRC.

I'm somewhat puzzled though as to why the Berkshire Line is on the radar screen in Boston at all, considering that any viable passenger service here is going to primarily benefit Litchfield County, Conn. Seems like it would make more sense to work on a second frequency on the B&A.

Unless, of course, Gov. Patrick is really looking forward to taking the train to NY from his summer place in the Berkshires...

My understanding is that there is a significant amount of New York oriented folks with homes along the old Canaan Sec. Supposedly many of these same people are driving to Hudson and then taking Amtrak to New York. Cheaper than Amtrak fares coupled with closer proximity to the homes of the affected Berkshirites with maybe even a massachusetts subsidy thrown in could make it a winning combination especially in the summer and fall.

Safetee wrote:My understanding is that there is a significant amount of New York oriented folks with homes along the old Canaan Sec. Supposedly many of these same people are driving to Hudson and then taking Amtrak to New York. Cheaper than Amtrak fares coupled with closer proximity to the homes of the affected Berkshirites with maybe even a massachusetts subsidy thrown in could make it a winning combination especially in the summer and fall.

I doubt it. There's no way a line that curvy is going to top 60 MPH in all but short segments. And it'll already cost close to a billion if they actually do intend to signalize and get it to Class 3...because its state of repair is just that bad. Great excursion line potential if it were brought up to tolerable maintenance for a 30 MPH trip through the country. Hell, Berkshire Scenic was already doing pretty well...they could've easily expanded their territory across the state line. But it's a lousy proposition for anybody traveling on a schedule.

If this is that important to the region, pony up to state-sponsor the Albany-Pittsfield extra mileage of an Empire train that would otherwise terminate in ALB. Like a lower-case Ethan Allen. Plunk an intermediate stop in Chatham or something so Pike drivers out of Stockbridge or Great Barrington drivers from MA 71 via NY 203 have a <20 mi. drive to a station. That's going to be the by far faster and more useful trip for general transit. And the cost is operational, not capital.


State of CT has more options for serving the Housatonic Valley. Obviously a MNRR Danbury Branch extension to New Milford is badly needed and would be slam-dunk for the ridership. North of there?...meh. Kent is less than 9 miles up CT 341 to two Harlem Line stops; they've always had viable nearby NYC commuter rail. And Caanan is simply in a rock and a hard place. Too far up too curvy a portion of the Berkshire Line for tolerable transit times...but only 10 miles from Millerton where a Harlem Line commuter rail restoration from Wassaic would slay the Berkshire on travel times (if only it were not trailed) and put them well within the catchment area for NYC commutes.

Frankly, I think Millerton is the higher-upside cause worth fighting for in the long term for that whole swath in far northwest CT bounded by US 7, US 44, and CT 4. Glomming onto Amtrak in Albany with some state-sponsored funding is the most useful and most feasible for Pittsfield and the Pike corridor in MA...*IF* an NYC direct is truly needed at all here, which is up for debate. New Milford is as far north on the Berkshire as US 7 traffic is bad, and the outer limits for real commuter rail off the Danbury Line. And the corridor lacks that critical connectivity to North Adams to make it truly useful for tying together all of Berkshire County's population.

This plan is like a billion-dollar solution in search of a problem.

The problem they should be trying to solve here is buying that line from its current FAILroad owners, working with CT to backstop the freight erosion in the Housy valley due to HRCC's intransigence, trying to get a competent freight carrier in there, getting the track up to acceptable freight standards, and stimulating the slow-speed excursion market with expanded Berkshire Scenic service across state lines. That's it. But in total economic stimulus to the region...that's almost better impact overall just from shoring up the freight baseline than doing the mega-build for passenger service the line just geographically can't handle at acceptable travel times.

The Massachusetts House and Senate leaders took an axe to the Governor's Big Plans.
While there are probably other news articles with more details, it appears that all the
new expansion proposals, Housy, New Bedford, etc. are gone, at least for the present.

http://www.enterprisenews.com/topstorie ... provements

Safetee wrote:My understanding is that there is a significant amount of New York oriented folks with homes along the old Canaan Sec. Supposedly many of these same people are driving to Hudson and then taking Amtrak to New York. Cheaper than Amtrak fares coupled with closer proximity to the homes of the affected Berkshirites with maybe even a massachusetts subsidy thrown in could make it a winning combination especially in the summer and fall.

I'd say significantly more of them are driving to Wassaic or Ten Mile River and taking MNR. It's pretty much a straight shot down MA/CT 41 to Sharon, then NY/CT 343 to Amenia.

F Line to Dudley via Park wrote: Frankly, I think Millerton is the higher-upside cause worth fighting for in the long term for that whole swath in far northwest CT bounded by US 7, US 44, and CT 4. Glomming onto Amtrak in Albany with some state-sponsored funding is the most useful and most feasible for Pittsfield and the Pike corridor in MA...*IF* an NYC direct is truly needed at all here, which is up for debate. New Milford is as far north on the Berkshire as US 7 traffic is bad, and the outer limits for real commuter rail off the Danbury Line. And the corridor lacks that critical connectivity to North Adams to make it truly useful for tying together all of Berkshire County's population.

Problem is, the Harlem Division north of Wassaic doesn't have rails anymore. And good luck defeating the NIMBYs to get them relaid. The Berkshire is still an active line.

Like I said, though, I think this is mostly a Connecticut problem, not Mass.

Getting back to the Housy etc, for a second. In 1961, not exactly the zenith of the New Haven , max track speeds from Pittsfield to the state line were 50/40. There are indeed many curves, some of which are in fact up to 12 degrees, a few are in the 6 to 7 degree range but, the majority are 1 to 3. Most of these curves were obviously super elevated to help compensate. In 1961 there were several slow orders with the majority just down to 40. I met an engineer in the 1970s who claimed back in steam days to regularly have hit 100 on a tangent south of great barrington. I’m guessing that with lots of ballast, heavy welded rail, ties, turnouts and bridges renewed, surfacing etc etc that the bulk of this branch could be made safe for sixty for passenger trains, with not much reason for speeds below 30 anywhere. So in my mind the engineering is very possible. It's the check writng that looks the most difficult.

As long as HRRC controls the ROW,it's VERY doudtful that MassDOT or ConnDOT will spend $$$$ on the route for
passenger service.
As for the upper Harlem from Wassaic to Millerton,GOOD luck trying to convert all the NIMBYs along NY 22 to
give up THEIR trail!!

What is wrong with Housy's Management nowadays?? I used to think that it was a well run railroad in 2005 when I left Connecticut. What happened?? Did the economy and CT politics caused HRR to not be as successful as before?

BTW, first Post!! I like reading this forum.

FLRailFan1 wrote:What is wrong with Housy's Management nowadays?? I used to think that it was a well run railroad in 2005 when I left Connecticut. What happened?? Did the economy and CT politics caused HRR to not be as successful as before?

BTW, first Post!! I like reading this forum.

Well, partly, arrogance. Even many of the locals who support rail don't like dealing with Hanlon.

As much as I'd love to see passenger rail return on this line, I just can't see any way of making it viable. It really looks like Hanlon is hopgin to get money to upgrade the corridor and then when passenger rail doesn't work say, "Oh well, we tried, btw, thanks for the upgrades."

HRRC seems to run on the "Guilford" business model,defer maintance till train derails,little customer service, find ways to
irratate neghboring RR's(MNR and P+W),and make promises with no intention to fulfill them.
Believe most of HRRC's mangement team came from Guilford's former mangement team.

Backshophoss wrote:HRRC seems to run on the "Guilford" business model,defer maintance till train derails,little customer service, find ways to
irratate neghboring RR's(MNR and P+W),and make promises with no intention to fulfill them.
Believe most of HRRC's mangement team came from Guilford's former mangement team.

Jeez, I thought that HRR was going to be there for the customers - but if it is like the Guilford model of rail Mismangement, they should sell it!! HRR has a viable line and they could create lots of money - in NY, CT and MA. Just think if HRR could go to Beacon and bring some CP shipments into CT. I bet AJ Bellivue Could make $$ with it. (And knowing him, rebuild lines.)

I know if AJ, had HRR, it would be be bigger then it is...(Brewster to Chatham, NY...and a branch from Cannan to Lakeville.)

Of course, I'd love to see AJ rebuild the canal line from Cheshire to Avon. (Never happenning, thou). Farmington Ready Mix would be happy!!