The Flying Yankee

3rdrail wrote:Good question, Mr. Geep, and if I am to be honest, I'm not really sure. Probably somebody else on this thread may know the answer. I had in my mind that having the Yankee would be historically correct in Boston generally as a terminal as opposed to South Station specifically, which I could of stated better. Technically, Boston's North Union Station and Portland's Union Station would be the two stations which equally could warrant such distinction, however sadly as we know, North Station is currently a mere shadow of it's former self and Union Station exists only in the memory of old timers. So, we are left with South Union Station currently as a viable terminal both historical by city as well as by opportunity it seems with word of expansion and renewal.

There actually is something of a precedent. The Pioneer Zephyr was displayed at South Station on April 26, 1934, during its tour on its way to the Century of Progress Exhibition in Chicago. It had been displayed at Penn Station in NY on April 23 & 24 so presumably traveled the Shore Line to Boston. The next stop was Schenectady, probably via Boston & Albany/New York Central.

I would not be too surprised, particularly in the Yankee's early days, if a circle trip from Boston to NYC to Portland as a promo with the New Haven cooperating may have taken place. I do know of many foreign trains appearing there over the years - Pere Marquette, Delaware & Hudson diesels, etc., even an MBTA 0600 series Cambridge Tunnel car ! It's almost like what they say in railroad modeling, "if you can think it up, it happened" !

3rdrail wrote:I don't know, Steamer. You post a doomsday scenario with everything that is said. Suffice to say, if we could get the National Register to take an interest, I don't see a real problem in any of the scenarios that you have presented. Once the federal government is interested, Heavens Gates open. As being "on the list", at a bare minimum, I don't think that it would be a long shot to see the Yankee wind up at Steamtown - and no, not in the conga scuttle row, but in it's own barn with visitor interaction devices. Frankly, a sell to the Register may be all that is needed here.

Well my friend, then why don't you put together a nomination packet for the old girl. Anyone can nominate a landmark.

http://www.nps.gov/nr/publications/bull ... /index.htm

There's a TON of paperwork that needs to be done. But I'll send you a PM with some help if you REALLY want to do it. Read the website that I sent you so that you understand what landmarking does and doesn't do.

Ha ! Thanks for the confidence in me, Steamer, but for me to be the plaintiff in this case might do more harm to the Yankee than even the FYRG as I've already said. This move with the National Register or National Landmarks Commitee is, as you suggest, a technical and skilled move legally. There's more to just making an application here. This requires an attorney who knows the ropes and has dealt with government and perhaps even eminent domain before. Anyone knows that the way to squash a novice without large pockets is to require large legal expenditures. I'd last five minutes into the first hearing. An attorney who's got the time, knowledge, and practices in NH is what's needed here. Again, I see my role here as most of us, that being ancillary in nature with the hope that someone who I have described will jump on this as a hobby. Like Popeye used to say, "I know what I am and I ams what I ams !" If it ever gets to it, make me an investigator with powers of habeas corpus and I'll have all of the "parts gone astray" back probably within two weeks !

So then we are back to my initial points. We need a new group with credibility, money (for that lawyer) and experience.

Who's ready to write up the paperwork? Anyone?

If it comes directly from RRN, that would be terrific, Steamer, but having said that, I happen to know for a fact that government and transit directors, etc. look at RRN repeatedly. Also, new readers come aboard daily, which is why I have confidence that the right person might read this story and decide to do something with it. As I indicated before, it most likely would have to be an attorney or somebody who had attorneys or a corporate counsel at their disposal. Before that time comes, I have always suggested that the New Hampshire Attoney General's office be contacted by a New Hampshire resident. With luck, it may not take any further action than that. At the very least, it would not be too much to demand that an objective professional auditor demand from FYRG to examine finances with an eye to checking for wrong doing or clearing them from same. Honestly, RR buffs tend to be a very docile group. If this were a feminist, Indian, disabled, or even a general historical group, this matter would have been resolved years ago.

Changing the subject a bit, are the trucks and wheels on the flying yankee and if so has it ever moved?

3rdrail wrote:...I have always suggested that the New Hampshire Attoney General's office be contacted by a New Hampshire resident. . . . Honestly, RR buffs tend to be a very docile group. If this were a feminist, Indian, disabled, or even a general historical group, this matter would have been resolved years ago.

Unfortunately I have to agree with this. Railroad enthusiasts are kind of notorious for coming up with great ideas and demanding that action be taken, but not following through. Not ALL of them, mind you (we definitely have a few movers and shakers right here in this thread), but probably more than 90% of them. Years ago when a notable locomotive was in danger of being scrapped, there were hundreds of "It must be saved! Someone should do something!" posts on the various message boards and email lists. But not a single one of them offered to make the first move. So I volunteered. Ultimately I was not successful in saving that locomotive, partly because I was young and inexperienced, and partly because I had help from only one other person (and he had no experience in acquiring or saving a locomotive). There were other factors as well, but those were the two biggest ones.

I see the same thing happening with the Yankee... and again I'm tempted to take the bull by the horns, but this is a FAR more challenging situation, with about 10,000% more obstacles than I faced when I was trying to save a single locomotive.

At the very least, if I lived in New Hampshire, that letter to the NH AG would've been written months ago.

As far as I can tell, there are at least four NH residents who have participated in this thread within the last six months. Would any of you be willing to write a letter? 3rdrail and I could help help you write it...

MEC407 wrote:

3rdrail wrote:...I have always suggested that the New Hampshire Attoney General's office be contacted by a New Hampshire resident. . . . Honestly, RR buffs tend to be a very docile group. If this were a feminist, Indian, disabled, or even a general historical group, this matter would have been resolved years ago.

Unfortunately I have to agree with this. Railroad enthusiasts are kind of notorious for coming up with great ideas and demanding that action be taken, but not following through. Not ALL of them, mind you (we definitely have a few movers and shakers right here in this thread), but probably more than 90% of them. Years ago when a notable locomotive was in danger of being scrapped, there were hundreds of "It must be saved! Someone should do something!" posts on the various message boards and email lists. But not a single one of them offered to make the first move. So I volunteered. Ultimately I was not successful in saving that locomotive, partly because I was young and inexperienced, and partly because I had help from only one other person (and he had no experience in acquiring or saving a locomotive). There were other factors as well, but those were the two biggest ones.

I see the same thing happening with the Yankee... and again I'm tempted to take the bull by the horns, but this is a FAR more challenging situation, with about 10,000% more obstacles than I faced when I was trying to save a single locomotive.

At the very least, if I lived in New Hampshire, that letter to the NH AG would've been written months ago.

As far as I can tell, there are at least four NH residents who have participated in this thread within the last six months. Would any of you be willing to write a letter? 3rdrail and I could help help you write it...

WAIT a second, hold the phone here,- woah, woah....
Nobody up[ there is talking about SCRAPPING the FY. The issue is that things have taken far too long and been done in a way that has left much to be desired as far as the RESTORATION foes, but... BUT....
...the only "threat" I see right now is that the FY may sit up there at Hobo for a long time... YEARS maybe with little or possibly nothing being done until either 1) the FYG actually comes up with more funding or 2) a different group WITH better funding comes along and can/is allowed to make things happen faster.
Weather I agree with anyone's assessment of the FYG itself aside, there is NO talk of it's being sold (as a whole) for scrap or otherwise.
I really can't see the State letting that happen. I think if the FYG is truly declared a failure they will wind up in a position similar to the City Of Waterville/MEC #470 and probably put some form of restoration/relocation/whatever out for bid... BUT THAT IS ONLY A GUESS( !) so don't quote me.
Sorry, now you guys can go back to... whatever it is you do here.

Cosmo - I've got a big sparkly bridge here in Boston, the Zakim, that I might interest you in buying. (Did Wanda make you say that ?)

Cosmo wrote:Nobody up[ there is talking about SCRAPPING the FY.

I didn't suggest that anyone was talking about scrapping the Yankee. When I wrote "I see the same thing happening with the Yankee," I was referring to what I described in my previous paragraph — the pleas/demands for action, but no one being willing to step forward and take action. That is the "same thing" I see happening with the Yankee. I apologize if I wasn't clear on that point.

I apologize for him, 307. I introduced them. I think that the clouds of cigar smoke are getting to him !

(Folks- If the thread goes a little unused for a while, bring it back from time to time to keep it visible. Say anything- tell us what you had for breakfast, just to keep this post up and in their face !)

Going to another marine analogy, I wonder if the Flying Yankee has some things in common with the iceberg that the TITANIC hit. It seems like there might be a lot more lurking beneath the surface, not visible to the casual observer. Take the situation with grant money for instance. No mention of grants recently, or applications for grants. Why not?

Could it be that the Flying Yankee is financially encumbered? Applications for grants tend to be rejected when the applying organization has outstanding debts. Grant money is intended to do new work, not pay for bills already on the books. Could there be additional debts involving this train that have not been revealed? With no public accountability, does anyone outside the existing group know for sure?

MX

Interesting thought. I think that a hornets nest might possibly be unveiled once someone with subpoena power got in there. (Those "trilogies" cost more than a ring ding, ya know !) You know what I find interesting ? In all the years that this thread has been running, we've never had anyone from the FYRG come on and post a "how dare you..." letter, bitterly explaining the myriad of questions which have popped up. (I don't think that we have. ??) If this were a matter of not enough this or that to do the job, and you were inside this group, wouldn't you make a stand for yourself, your group, and the Flying Yankee itself ? Even at a Gala, we had a poster tell us that he attended one and was surprised to find that the FYRG wouldn't take questions at an event which was promoted as generating interest in the Yankee ! I don't mean to sound dramatic when I say that the silence is deafening.

Tracer wrote:Changing the subject a bit, are the trucks and wheels on the flying yankee and if so has it ever moved?

No. There have been shop trucks under it since 2003(?) and it has not been put back onto the orriginal articulated truck sets. Last I heard, the sets were almost done and ready to be put back in, but none of the air components had been done yet, so even if they put the trucksets back in....the train couldn't be moved, because it can not pass an initial terminal test.

Cosmo wrote:I think if the FYG is truly declared a failure they will wind up in a position similar to the City Of Waterville/MEC #470 and probably put some form of restoration/relocation/whatever out for bid... BUT THAT IS ONLY A GUESS( !) so don't quote me.

Is it 2001 yet? That was the publicized and promoted “launch” of the trainset, which in itself was a load of hooey for reasons that I (along with others) have said in the past. You can turn it in Lincoln, and in….um…..Tilton! No, wait a minute, the Y there isn’t intact. Hmm….Concord. No, no Y there either. Concord is the only place that it is easy to put in a Y, so that’s an 8 hour train ride (one way)….16 hour round trip. Which, by the way would put the crew over their hours of service, necessitating two crews to do one round trip. That puts just your crew costs at $1,800.00 assuming that you pay all of them only $9.00 an hour.
Tank into consideration that the Yankee has space for 142 paying passengers….you would have to find people willing to pay the over $100.00 ticket to cover all your costs. Cosmo, it’s been a failure since it was moved to a place that cannot handle it. And before you jump down my throat….the Shop at Lincoln is second to none. They can handle it. Ben and the boys work miracle after miracle on that railroad, and he is a great guy to work for. That being said. He cannot Miracle a coherent group out of the debacle that is the Frying Yankmee Groap. It is likewise unrealistic to expect Ben to pick up the tab for the shop work, if the Yankmee Groap can’t even meet its current obligations because they never wanted to listen to the contractors in the first place….. and I’m sure that Ben is (or has) told them some of the exact same things that the original contractors did. Hence the complete and total grinding to a halt. And the biggest issue is there is NO infrastructure in place that can handle the trainset. That is why I say that they cannot handle it. In their defense, Claremont couldn’t handle it either.

The Yankmee Groap in its current state is all ready a PR, and Logistical failure. No need for someone to declare the obvious. Helen Keller could see how messed up this has become.

mxdata wrote:Going to another marine analogy, I wonder if the Flying Yankee has some things in common with the iceberg that the TITANIC hit. It seems like there might be a lot more lurking beneath the surface, not visible to the casual observer. Take the situation with grant money for instance. No mention of grants recently, or applications for grants. Why not?

You have hit the nail on the head. They’re not going to be given any grant money when the money that they are given isn’t used for what it was intended to be used for. Money meant to put a prime mover back into the trainset cannot be spent on a Gala where you auction off parts of that prime mover that you got a grant to rebuild

mxdata wrote:Could it be that the Flying Yankee is financially encumbered?

Flat a$$ broke. No financial reports like we used to get, no monthly "restoration" updates in a while, and repeated requests to the Groap have gone unanswered. I would say it's a very good bet that the place is dead.

3rdrail wrote:You know what I find interesting ? In all the years that this thread has been running, we've never had anyone from the FYRG come on and post a "how dare you..." letter, bitterly explaining the myriad of questions which have popped up.

That’s because it’s kind of hard to argue with the truth. And none of them want to come out and say “you guys are right. We made some mistakes, and now can’t find a few million dollars, and are no closer to being done than when we moved the trainset in 2005.” No one on that Groap wants to be the one to have to take responsibility, because everyone else is going to throw them right under the bus.

Someone needs to stop griping about all of this and just start a new Yankee group and get something done to try and pick up the pieces….but I’m not going to hold my breath. And I’ve got too much going on to take this on too. Someone elses turn. I’m not a huge infernal combustion fan anyway.