The Flying Yankee

Otto Vondrak wrote:I don't understand.

Everyone here is asking about the activities of the Flying Yankee restoration group.

It is more of a statement of "What the hell...!"

Otto Vondrak wrote:As far as I can tell, everything that's been discussed so far has been based on outside observation since no news has been released in a while.

Does that include the poster(s) on the thread who are former members working on the Flying Yankee, Otto ? (which you were made aware of )

Otto Vondrak wrote:Just now you told me you can't contact the Flying Yankee group for comment.

Apparently, you don't read the thread prior to commenting. I continually updated the readership of my initial correspondence with the FYRG, promising at that time to update any reply. I updated the reply, as promised, further updated that I was not receiving any information from the "Board of Directors", and finally, after a long sequence of time, announced that no further message had been received. These are all in the text of this thread when last I checked, so they should be available for you. I found that the only person to cause my posts to disappear was yourself (after calling them "ridiculous"), so by default, it would appear that you have access to the full thread as combined even if further "cuts" have been made.

Otto Vondrak wrote:So what would be the next step in the process to get the real story about this project?

I would suggest that the next step should be for posters to stop confusing the recent reader by placing odd erroneous posts, and that we let the posts go where they will as two out of staters, as I have suggested. I would love to have the Yankee back in Massachusetts, but I have to reconcile that the power to move this train anywhere, even within the state of New Hampshire, is pretty much in the hands of the people of New Hampshire. If they are not willing to do anything, ...well, I think that it's a shame, I'll miss the Yankee, but I do have memories of it at Edaville which I'll always have. (Sounds like the railway version of the last scene of "Casablanca".)

The people who have worked on the project have tried to tell everyone how it is.....and we get told we don't know what we're talking about. That's why no one with their hands on the train (past or present) is saying anything anymore. Once people stop yearning over the trainset, take a step back along with a deep breath, and then regroup.....there may be some learned discussion on the trainset. When it comes right down to it though, certain people are saying the exact same thing over and over and over, and what they are saying has been corroborated time and time again.....and no one seems to want to take the answers that are being given. I've not said much about this for a long while, but I will recap after pages and pages of materel.

1.) The trainset is no closer to running now than it was when it left Claremont. Has some work been done? Yes. Is there even the remote possibility of the trainset operating anywhere anytime soon? No. If you leave it on the P&L, where are you going to turn it? The only Y is in Lincoln, with no other location for turning an articulated trainset. So do you then have to "update" all of the systems on the trainset that have all ready been worked on to make it an interchangeable venture?

2.) There is still the sour taste in the mouths of people who worked on the set over the whole prime mover debacle. Have they decided what they are going to do about the prime mover, main generator etc? I'm willing to bet not. That was a HUGE bone of contention, and now you can't even go back to putting the Winton back in it due to the fact that parts of the engine have been auctioned off.

3.) In order to give a revitalised project any sort of legitimacy, the entire structure of the group would have to be changed. I'm not going to speak for everyone on this forum, but I would venture it's a pretty good guess that no one will send more money to a group that can not account for the millions of dollars that have been spent on the project for what? One car done....one car half done....and another one still stripped.

4.) How do you pay for the operation of the train? In order to cover costs, the ticket price would be astronomical. In the hundreds of dollars per seat, and then you come back to the issue of where are you going to run it?

Unfortunately, the Flying Yankee is New Englands 1361. So do we leave it be, or try and pick up the pieces? Either way, it involves a 180 degree turn in thinking and personnel.

Thank you, Steamer for amother informative post. I'm not telling tales out of school to advise here that Steamer is a former worker on the Flying Yankee because he has advised us before (p.33), and thus a valuable source of first hand knowledge. When you hear "I'm just trying to eliminate possibilities here since I've been reading a few pages of hyperbole, but not much hard data to make a judgement call for sure", remember this !

Like button........


Anyone seen anything on when the next "Gala" is? I would like to buy some more parts for the winton I'm putting together. Cheaper to buy freshly rebuilt parts from the Yankee Group than it is to actually get them made.....

3rdrail wrote:Apparently, you don't read the thread prior to commenting. I continually updated the readership of my initial correspondence with the FYRG, promising at that time to update any reply. I updated the reply, as promised, further updated that I was not receiving any information from the "Board of Directors", and finally, after a long sequence of time, announced that no further message had been received. These are all in the text of this thread when last I checked, so they should be available for you. I found that the only person to cause my posts to disappear was yourself (after calling them "ridiculous"), so by default, it would appear that you have access to the full thread as combined even if further "cuts" have been made. ]I would suggest that the next step should be for posters to stop confusing the recent reader by placing odd erroneous posts...

Sounds like your sharpening your axe to grind against me for asking questions and trying to understand the current situation. Now your accusing me of deleting your posts. Anything else you want to get off your chest? You seem to have a vested interest in this project, which is why I'm trying to engage you in conversation about the whole matter, but instead you're complaining that I'm not asking the right questions. Or something.

-otto-

steamer69 wrote:1.) The trainset is no closer to running now than it was when it left Claremont...

2.) There is still the sour taste in the mouths of people who worked on the set over the whole prime mover debacle...

3.) In order to give a revitalised project any sort of legitimacy, the entire structure of the group would have to be changed...

I don't see any reason to doubt steamer69's summary... So if that indeed is the current state of affairs, what happens next? Storm the castle? Hold a wake? Demand an autopsy? I'm interested in this topic from a railway preservation standpoint. A colossal failure in project management from top to bottom. There's a great lesson to be learned here, and if anything, dissecting the issue will help others not make the same mistakes in the future.

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:

3rdrail wrote:Apparently, you don't read the thread prior to commenting. I continually updated the readership of my initial correspondence with the FYRG, promising at that time to update any reply. I updated the reply, as promised, further updated that I was not receiving any information from the "Board of Directors", and finally, after a long sequence of time, announced that no further message had been received. These are all in the text of this thread when last I checked, so they should be available for you. I found that the only person to cause my posts to disappear was yourself (after calling them "ridiculous"), so by default, it would appear that you have access to the full thread as combined even if further "cuts" have been made. ]I would suggest that the next step should be for posters to stop confusing the recent reader by placing odd erroneous posts...

Sounds like your sharpening your axe to grind against me for asking questions and trying to understand the current situation. Now your accusing me of deleting your posts. Anything else you want to get off your chest? You seem to have a vested interest in this project, which is why I'm trying to engage you in conversation about the whole matter, but instead you're complaining that I'm not asking the right questions. Or something.

-otto-

I'm "sharpening my axe", Otto ? Really ??!! As far as the deleted posts are concerned, during the period we are speaking about you were the Site Administrator. You were the poster who continually could be depended upon to get quite emotional by virtue of watching your fervent display of locking and unlocking the thread continuously. The only other individuals with this capability ostensibly would be the co-moderators (both of whom I know). Why don't we ask them ? (Only a slight perusal of this thread's page 25 shows an obvious gap in continuity.) I don't know what your sensitivity is Otto. It's much the same as when I tried to advise you on 6/20/09 that you could be prosecuted criminally for doing the advice that you were espousing while thinking of "petting kittens" as you said. Then, you accused me of not being happy until you were arrested and inserting "blah blah blah" into my quote. (??) What the hell, Otto ? You apparently want us to believe that you have no agenda and want the bare and unabashed truth such as in this latest quote that you have made today-

Otto Vondrak wrote:There's a great lesson to be learned here, and if anything, dissecting the issue will help others not make the same mistakes in the future.

Well, I suggest if we are going to "dissect" the issue that perhaps we shouldn't be pulling posts and locking threads ?

Otto Vondrak wrote:3rdrail wrote:
My point is that what you are suggesting is not beneficial to readers of Railroad.net in that some may take your uninformed advice unwittingly. A case in point is a matter in which a CSA tells you to stop photographig... blah blah blah... By suggesting that MBTA CSA's are powerless jerks who will slink back into their cubbys if challenged, whether they are "informed" or otherwise, is obviously untrue (as we have seen), and an insult.

I think 3rdrail's not going to be happy until I'm in the backseat of an MBTA cruiser.

Demand an autopsy.....

This project has to date achieved a status not unlike the S. S. Nobska.

It has consumed an impressive amount of money and the only more or less complete result of that expenditure is a website.

Welcome Aboard! (Note the text frame at the bottom of the page that explains what happened to the ship).

http://www.nobska.org/

MX

"....dissecting the issue will help others not make the same mistakes in the future. "

S. S. Nobska:

Is it a good idea to take a 1920s steamship that needs extensive reconstruction and start a project to rebuild it with an uncertain supply of public money and donations, without adequate provision for the true cost of the work, and with the intention of taking it out and running it on the routes of a state funded steamship authority that operates modern vessels?

Flying Yankee:

Is it a good idea to take a 1930s articulated streamlined train that needs extensive reconstruction and start a project to rebuild it with an uncertain supply of public money and donations, without adequate provision to cover the true cost of the work, and with the intention of taking it out and running it on the routes of a national railway passenger service?

MX

I remember the Nobska, but had not realized it had finally dissolved into a scrap pile. In the 1990s, i was involved with a restoration project that was also a non traditional federal restoration project. The Nobska was the darling of the EOTC/Mass Highway eyes at the time because it was historic, romantic and had lots of nice brass and wood. Our project was historic for sure, but was a lot less sexy, located in the wrong part of the state, with not a lot of support. It's interesting to see that in the final analysis our project became a poster child for successful istea funding in Massachusetts at a time when istea projects seemed prone to die cruel deaths.
Which brings me to the Flying Yankee. The FY has never had the focused jihadi leadership that is necessary for succcessful restorations. In my opinion too much money, time and words have been wasted on the Flying Yankee for it to become a successful operational traveling show. Almost any project of this type requires focused energy to ride the waves of support which dont last for a very long time. FY has wasted their waves and their current diminshing options now appear to increasingly lie between stationary display and Nobska ignominy. If it was up to me, appreciating the fact that 5 percent of soemthing is always better than a 100% of nothing, I'd go for the stationary display and declare mission accomplished.

Thanks for your excellent posting, Safetee. Yes, the S. S. Nobska is now part of Chinese built consumer products. The attempt at a running restoration led to the demolition of the artifact. A more financially conservative attempt at static display might have had a chance at preserving it (or maybe not).

I still have the New Bedford Standard Times article telling how the Nobska restoration was going to bring millions of dollars into the community, and how the rebuilding of the 1920s reciprocating engines by the local trade school was going to teach the students in the city the skills they needed to land good paying jobs. I wonder how many of them are on public assistance now.

The Flying Yankee project has been accompanied by its own supply of similar hype. Remember the releases back around 2005 or so, that said the Winton Engine was going to be reassembled and used as an educational display, while the train would be repowered with the latest "green" technology Diesel engine and transmission equipment? Putting the Winton back together requires, well, putting the Winton back together. It is still in pieces many years later, stored in containers, and I would guess that it is not in better condition as a result of its experience. If the project cannot even come up with the means to put the engine back together for static display, what are the chances it will ever complete the work on the train?

MX

Lesson: Don't attempt a project without reasonable assurance you have the means to complete it.

Make it look spiffy, haul it down to the new and improved South Station ( whenever ) , and set it on a few lengths of track and make it a monument .

Why South Station?

I also believe that the state of New Hampshire is at fault here for not having an objective executor who should have pulled the reins back when the first gala was announced with it's parts flying out the door fury and chocolate trilogies abounding. FWIW, I back Teamdriver's "South Station" idea 100 % at this point. South Station was the Flyer's home for it's career and the timing (with SS's planned expansion) would be perfect to "get it done". Best of all, it would be out of the hands of the Flying Yankee Restoration Group.