Lansdale-Quakertown Corridor Alternatives Analysis

Clearfield wrote:

jrevans wrote:I've become very pessimistic about passenger service restoration on any of the Bethlehem Branch.

*** This is NOT meant to be a "political" rant. Both parties are to blame, and so are both the Obama and W Whitehouse's, but just the way I honestly see it ***

Not just the Bethlehem branch.

No Norristown restoration to anywhere.
No Newtown restoration.
No replacemernt RRD substations.
No SLVI's
Service cuts and fare increases in about a year
Oil companies making record profits

Prior to 911, there little political will to pay for transit in PA, and certainly no defined public policy on it.

Post 911, the Federal Government started two wars, cut taxes, increased entitlements, and reduced funding to State Governments.

The State Governments reduced their spending to match the Federal subsidy cuts.

The local municipalities repsonded by reducing their spending to match the State subsidy cuts.

98% (reportedly) of Republican House and Senate members violated their oath's of Federal Office and signed on to a new Federal Government created by Grover Norquist and pledged not to increase taxes under any circumstances.

Because the Federal government is badly broken, the country is financially broke.

It can't stop spending, it can't stop printing money, and it can't raise taxes from the folks who can afford to pay more. The poor don't pay taxes, and the middle class is being squeezed out of existance.

THIS is trickle Down economics.

Just my 2 cents.

I completely disagree with pretty much everything stated above aside from the 2 wars. That is what caused all of this, in combination with the sub-prime catastrophe and austerity obsessed extremist right wing governors. If you really want to argue about what is to blame there are plenty of undeniable facts that people choose to ignore. The way to get out of a recession is for the federal government to pump money into infrastructure and education and other civic areas. This means jobs, jobs means people buy stuff and that means people get hired to meet the new demand and all of the sudden the economy is roaring away stronger than ever. The problem is misinformation, fear tactics, and incorrectly targeted over-simplification of issues such as social services ie welfare and social security. We have sold our manufacturing jobs to china and elsewhere. You cannot base a thriving economy off of fast food and cubicles. We need manufacturing, and since we have so little of that left the only alternative is massive civil engineering investment. I'm talking pipelines, bridges, highways, hell half of school parking lots are crumbling apart.

Oh and the side effect of all this investment and renewal? A better country to live in for everyone, and a sustainable economy. Too bad it seems these tea party folks don't understand or don't care. So much for patriotism....

I'm tired to death of misinformed people with no vision and no idea what they are talking about blind to the problems right in front of them complaining and whining about poor people getting help and taxes being too high when they themselves are the root cause of all the issues.

If you really want al the rail service that could be to come to reality, you have to make it happen. Citizenship is not a spectator sport!

OK, no politics. Back to the topic at hand.

Best thing right now would be to take the Trans Bridge bus from Bethlehem to Doylestown and take a SEPTA electric train from there. The bus stops right at the SEPTA station. Or, take Carl R. Bieber direct to 30th St. (no more Colmar RR station stop on 309 because south of Quakertown bus takes Turnpike instead of 309 for an express run). That's the best we'll have unless the political BS goes away and funding magically appears. Here is the Trans-Bridge schedule. http://www.transbridgelines.com/Doylest ... df#zoom=75 Hey, you can even go to New Hope and ride the New Hope and Ivyland or Flemington and ride the Black River & Western, both now steam powered. You could leave Bethlehem at 10:00 AM (near LVI Airport) and be in New Hope by 11:25 and Flemington, NJ by 11:55 on a Saturday in order to ride NH&I or BR&W. There would be a late afternoon and early evening run in order to get back to Bethlehem.

rwk wrote:Best thing right now would be to take the Trans Bridge bus from Bethlehem to Doylestown and take a SEPTA electric train from there. The bus stops right at the SEPTA station. Or, take Carl R. Bieber direct to 30th St. (no more Colmar RR station stop on 309 because south of Quakertown bus takes Turnpike instead of 309 for an express run). That's the best we'll have unless the political BS goes away and funding magically appears. Here is the Trans-Bridge schedule. http://www.transbridgelines.com/Doylest ... df#zoom=75 Hey, you can even go to New Hope and ride the New Hope and Ivyland or Flemington and ride the Black River & Western, both now steam powered. You could leave Bethlehem at 10:00 AM (near LVI Airport) and be in New Hope by 11:25 and Flemington, NJ by 11:55 on a Saturday in order to ride NH&I or BR&W. There would be a late afternoon and early evening run in order to get back to Bethlehem.

Funny, I was just thinking about this on Wednesday. Could the Rt 132 be extended? After it leaves Landis Mkt in Telford, go east along Church/State Rd, left (north) on Bethlehem Pk, N 309, right (east) on Rt 313/W Broad St to the Quakertown train station, right on Station Av, back to Rt 309 and retrace it steps back to Lansdale.

I realize this is not as good a solution, but it might be a good temporary one. It might also prove that the ridership is there.

Doug Maddox
Perkasie

What happened to the plan to restore commuter rail to Quakertown/Shelly? Was it scrubbed? Now I hear that service might be restored as far north as Sellersville/Perkasie, AKA "Pennridge" using existing SEPTA electric cars by wiring the line with new catenary. Why don't they just cat all the way to Shelly, lol. Shelly as the northern terminus would keep it within the SEPTA jurisdiction, if the service wold be SEPTA operated. Any farther north then you enter Lehigh County and the tracks were lifted, anyway. SEPTA would have to build all new track on the ROW to go to Bethlehem and SEPTA even says that Bethlehem is outside their service area on a question about bus service to the casino. So, it seems that Bethlehem service is dead unless a miracle happens. Besides, would the City of Bethlehem want rails again through the South Side? NS abandoned that portion and turned it over to the City of Bethlehem for the greenway. There could be a new station closer to the casino and completely scrub going back to Union Station. Or, serve Union Station by using the mainline along the Lehigh. There's a big sinkhole or cave in where the ex-Reading Beth Branch meets the south end of the PB&NE yard. Or, NJT could extend the Raritan Valley Line back to Phillipsburg, then extend into PA to Easton, Bethlehem, and Allentown using Norfolk Southern rails on the ex-LV side south of the Lehigh River. There is such a plan proposed. But, would PennDOT even fund an out of state agency like NJT for a PA extension? NJT does run into Philly 30th St Station on the Atlantic City line. The ideal thing would be to have rail service to Philly and NJ/NYC from Bethlehem.

rwk wrote:What happened to the plan to restore commuter rail to Quakertown/Shelly? Was it scrubbed? Now I hear that service might be restored as far north as Sellersville/Perkasie, AKA "Pennridge" using existing SEPTA electric cars by wiring the line with new catenary. Why don't they just cat all the way to Shelly, lol. Shelly as the northern terminus would keep it within the SEPTA jurisdiction, if the service wold be SEPTA operated. Any farther north then you enter Lehigh County and the tracks were lifted, anyway. SEPTA would have to build all new track on the ROW to go to Bethlehem and SEPTA even says that Bethlehem is outside their service area on a question about bus service to the casino. So, it seems that Bethlehem service is dead unless a miracle happens. Besides, would the City of Bethlehem want rails again through the South Side? NS abandoned that portion and turned it over to the City of Bethlehem for the greenway. There could be a new station closer to the casino and completely scrub going back to Union Station. Or, serve Union Station by using the mainline along the Lehigh. There's a big sinkhole or cave in where the ex-Reading Beth Branch meets the south end of the PB&NE yard. Or, NJT could extend the Raritan Valley Line back to Phillipsburg, then extend into PA to Easton, Bethlehem, and Allentown using Norfolk Southern rails on the ex-LV side south of the Lehigh River. There is such a plan proposed. But, would PennDOT even fund an out of state agency like NJT for a PA extension? NJT does run into Philly 30th St Station on the Atlantic City line. The ideal thing would be to have rail service to Philly and NJ/NYC from Bethlehem.

They would have to rebuild the tracks entirely from Landsdale on. Yeah, the track is still there, but its in deplorable condition. I think the speed restriction is something like 10mph. There's a lot of weed growth on the ballast, brush encroachment in some places over all but one of the tracks, the ties and rail are really tired and would have to be replaced, and I believe there's a tunnel along that line that is in need of some major work from what I understand. SEPTA would probably want to upgrade the infrastructure in any case from what currently exists. I believe most of their system has continuously welded rail now, for instance, and that's something they'll probably want to put into any expansion in the future. Basically, SEPTA would almost be starting from scratch minus the fact that the ROW already exists.

MariusP wrote:They would have to rebuild the tracks entirely from Landsdale on. Yeah, the track is still there, but its in deplorable condition. I think the speed restriction is something like 10mph. There's a lot of weed growth on the ballast, brush encroachment in some places over all but one of the tracks, the ties and rail are really tired and would have to be replaced, and I believe there's a tunnel along that line that is in need of some major work from what I understand. SEPTA would probably want to upgrade the infrastructure in any case from what currently exists. I believe most of their system has continuously welded rail now, for instance, and that's something they'll probably want to put into any expansion in the future. Basically, SEPTA would almost be starting from scratch minus the fact that the ROW already exists.

I believe it's currently 'dark territory' requiring completely new PTC signalization.
It's all doable, and worth doing.
Someone needs to find the money to do it.
The incoming PA Attorney General may help facilitate it, even though she may not realize it.

Clearfield wrote:The incoming PA Attorney General may help facilitate it, even though she may not realize it.

You hinting towards her possibly impeaching Corbett?

rwk wrote:What happened to the plan to restore commuter rail to Quakertown/Shelly? Was it scrubbed? Now I hear that service might be restored as far north as Sellersville/Perkasie, AKA "Pennridge" using existing SEPTA electric cars by wiring the line with new catenary. Why don't they just cat all the way to Shelly, lol. Shelly as the northern terminus would keep it within the SEPTA jurisdiction, if the service wold be SEPTA operated. Any farther north then you enter Lehigh County and the tracks were lifted, anyway. SEPTA would have to build all new track on the ROW to go to Bethlehem and SEPTA even says that Bethlehem is outside their service area on a question about bus service to the casino. So, it seems that Bethlehem service is dead unless a miracle happens. Besides, would the City of Bethlehem want rails again through the South Side? NS abandoned that portion and turned it over to the City of Bethlehem for the greenway. There could be a new station closer to the casino and completely scrub going back to Union Station. Or, serve Union Station by using the mainline along the Lehigh. There's a big sinkhole or cave in where the ex-Reading Beth Branch meets the south end of the PB&NE yard. Or, NJT could extend the Raritan Valley Line back to Phillipsburg, then extend into PA to Easton, Bethlehem, and Allentown using Norfolk Southern rails on the ex-LV side south of the Lehigh River. There is such a plan proposed. But, would PennDOT even fund an out of state agency like NJT for a PA extension? NJT does run into Philly 30th St Station on the Atlantic City line. The ideal thing would be to have rail service to Philly and NJ/NYC from Bethlehem.

Rail service from Bethlehem/Allentown/Easton to both NYC and PHL would be a HUGE economic boon for the Lehigh Valley. It could turn them into viable commuter cities overnight, and open up a huge job market for a somewhat depressed area, as well as spurring a real estate boom due to an increase in demand. Their downtown areas could see an even bigger increase from tourism by people taking the train up for the day, no longer having to deal with the nightmare that can be the Northeast Extension.

I would love to see it happen, but I'm afraid it's something of a pipe dream at this point.

The project was cut back to Pennridge as Bucks County Government has little to no interest in having the service provided.

Since the Feds and the State are broke, it becomes a 'build here - fund here' situation, and there is no local money for the project.

No local politicians have the stomach for a tax increase of any kind right now.

So, the entire project is shelved 'until such time'.....

I'm a huge railfan, and the Bethlehem Branch is one of my favorite lines, but I just can't see this progressing any time in the near future.

Our country and state are in a world of financial hurt. The economy is in the crapper and doesn't seem to be improving very rapidly, if at all.

Unless there is a strong business case made for passenger service restoration on this line, it just isn't going to happen. The feds and the states aren't giving out grants for projects like this, and the local money isn't there either.

It's just a shame that passenger service stopped on this line in the first place, and the trailies have driven a stake into the heart of the line. The East Penn was able to make the existing rail infrastructure work up to Quakertown for freight, and they could have done the same to the North if there were customers, but with the rail gone, it's all a sad dream now.

Too bad CSX doesn't need a gateway to the Lehigh Valley from Philly.

Yep, us in the Lehigh Valley region are stuck with bus service, both local and long distance for the next 50 years, lol. Even rail shuttles between Allentown, Bethlehem, or Easton probably wouldn't work. NS would probably have no part in that. It's a shame that the commuter agencies in PA and NJ have no interest in extending any rail service in the near future. SEPTA has the problem of electric only mentality, poor rail infrastructure north of Lansdale to support commuter service, having to deal with NS for trackage rights past Norristown, and lack of electrification on those lines. NJ Transit has the problem of track repairs needed west of High Bridge, trackage rights with NS needed into Phillipsburg, trackage rights with NS needed west of Hackettstown, and both agencies have the problem of lack of state and federal funding for such extensions. The buses to NY or Philly are actually a more attractive option for commuters/travelers because it runs express, and they can use existing highways, thus no infrastructure to maintain unlike the railroad. The state is responsible for highway maintenance. So, rail service actually costs more to run than buses, and it probably wouldn't make a profit just enough to cover it's costs if that. In fact, Carl R. Bieber Tourways (bus) was listed as substitute alternate transportation for the Bethlehem-Quakertown area when SEPTA was about to ditch the diesel lines in July, 1981. Right here http://www.phillytrolley.org/RDC/rdc06.html That was the beginning of the end for all diesel rail service on SEPTA (which was operated with Conrail crews at the time). I wonder how many people move to the Lehigh Valley from NJ and Delaware Valley that still commute to NY or Philly and realize all there is in the LV area is freight trains and that they will have to drive 30 to 40 miles to the nearest commuter rail station? (Like Colmar, PA or Annandale, NJ) Or, take the bus? Or worse, drive on the PA Turnpike NE Ext. or I-78? And CSX? Why would NS let CSX invade it's territory? NS owns the tracks through Bethlehem and Allentown. If CSX used the line north of Lansdale (and Quakertown) (they actually gave it up to a short line operator),they would have probably terminated at the PB&NE yard in Bethlehem.

Clearfield wrote:The project was cut back to Pennridge as Bucks County Government has little to no interest in having the service provided.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that. I think I mentioned earlier the big challenge going beyond "Pennridge" with the Perkasie tunnel, which increases costs drastically. Thus the Pennridge portion would be a first phase. The ones who really have no interest in the line are government officials in the Lehigh area, which is the primary reason the line ended at Shelly in the first place. Isn't the railroad north of Shelly being converted into a trail as well?

It really is a shame, because there is terrible traffic north of Quakertown on 309.

maddoxdy wrote:Funny, I was just thinking about this on Wednesday. Could the Rt 132 be extended? After it leaves Landis Mkt in Telford, go east along Church/State Rd, left (north) on Bethlehem Pk, N 309, right (east) on Rt 313/W Broad St to the Quakertown train station, right on Station Av, back to Rt 309 and retrace it steps back to Lansdale.

I realize this is not as good a solution, but it might be a good temporary one. It might also prove that the ridership is there.

Doug Maddox
Perkasie

There is an unfunded tariff for an extension of the 132 to Bucks County Community College in Perkasie via Sellersville and Grand View Hospital. Although approved by the SEPTA board, there apparently hasn't been money to fund it at all, including the time when Act 44 brought a bunch of additional funding to all agencies in the state of Pennsylvania. I'm not sure how many people would use the 132 to connect with the train (as I'm not sure the schedules are even timed to connect with each other), but I'm sure there would be sufficient local ridership for the people in the community. Sellersville and Perkasie are really nice towns; it's a shame these communities are severed from the rest of the county public transportation-wise.

Bieber bus used to have a stop in Sellersville, since the switch to the PA Turnpike south of Quakertown for an express run to 30th St. the Sellersville stop was eliminated. So was the stop at Colmar station. Now the only way to do "bus to train" from the Lehigh Valley to Philly would be to take the Trans-Bridge bus from Bethlehem to Doylestown SEPTA station and take the train from there. Why doesn't SEPTA do what Metro-North and perhaps NJT might do, use dual mode locomotives hauling normal coaches like the push-pull coaches from Qtown to 30th St.? That way, it could be a one seat ride into the city without a train or locomotive change. Perhaps a hybrid MU car that could operate on both diesel (or battery) and electric via pantographs. At Lansdale, raise the pantos at the station when heading south, and drop the pantos when heading north and change power modes.

Passenger rail service restoration to Q-Town or above will never happen in my lifetime or probably yours if you are realistic about it.

I heard all the chatter about NYC to Stroudsburg train service when I rode the Martz bus over 25 years ago and that was a service that would have boomed then and exploded now compared to anything to Phila.

But these days when I see what has happened to the Stroudsburgs, the Lehigh Valley and beyond WITHOUT rail service, as a Valley resident FIRST and a railfan second, I am deligheted I'll never see it. Anyone who wishes the Valley to become a bedroom community for Philadelphia is asking for a faster decline then we are experiencing now with just the NJ/NYC crowd.

The bad news is with the Iron Pigs and Eagles practicing here, we have been discovered. The good news is you still have to drive here and it can be a pain.

Now if the Eagles and Iron Pigs would just go away too...