The Flying Yankee

The celebration will be when the Yankmee Groap finally implodes, and then money will go to the train instead of to "salarys" and funding "Celebrations".

Ce-lebrate good times, COME ON! Ba na na nat na nana na....


1.) Fire, disband, what ever the ENTIRE yankmee groap and board.
2.) How about LISTENING to restoration and preservation specialists when they give you ideas
3.) Just because you have worked on a railroad, doesn't mean you know more about restoring vintage equipment than people who make a living restoring vintage equipment
4.) Don't spend half a mil on restoring and rebuilding an engine just so you can auction off pieces of it......


These guys are the epitome of stupid......and they are not suffering. The only hurt party is the trainset.

Other parties of the non-celebratory but injured variety are those who have been looking forward to riding what is still a static display.

^ Agreed.

You know what they say guys, "never say never", but it is not looking good if we are to be perfectly honest. I'm disappointed as well, although my disappointment is somewhat abated by the fact that even when the fantasy was alive, we were going to get a different experience from the old girl. She wouldn't have been The Flying Yankee without her Winton. She'd be something else. Maybe similiar, but not the genuine article.

gokeefe wrote:I would think that the Railroad Museum of New England might also be a) interested and b) capable of taking over the trainset...

I dunno, we already got yelled at once because we weren't restoring stuff fast enough for some folks... I'd hate to have RMNE saddled with the Flying Yankee, too. We're not a graveyard, that's for sure.

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:

gokeefe wrote:I would think that the Railroad Museum of New England might also be a) interested and b) capable of taking over the trainset...

I dunno, we already got yelled at once because we weren't restoring stuff fast enough for some folks... I'd hate to have RMNE saddled with the Flying Yankee, too. We're not a graveyard, that's for sure.

-otto-

You know, Otto makes an awesome point here. A LOT of criticism gets handed out gratis to outfits that have, all-beit well intentionally, bitten off more than they could chew and gotten stuck with yards full of "rotting junk."
We can say one thing for certain, at THIS time, the FY set has at least been PROTECTED from the elements and that attention has been given to weatherproofing.
One old codger (a term of endearment btw, ) I know had a complaint about an organization that (back in the old days,) "destroyed more [pieces] than they saved" because he and his volunteer buddies were forbade from tarring the roofs of some cars which would at least have protected them from the elements until either pole-barns could be built or some more thorough restoration could be undertaken, but it was deemed "not authentic!" to do such and so the roofs rotted, causing leakage, thus ruining the cars.
[And NO, itwas NOT RMNE, and NOT the AF cars. TOTALLY different animals, totally different zoo. ]
But here's the thing, ...
IF such comes to pass that the state either decides it cannot afford , would rather not continue, or otherwise wash it's hands of the project, then:
1) The FY is in a GOOD place right now, [Hobo RR]
2) It's in GOOD shape for someone to pick up and take over [ie: NOT rusted half away and with much work done already]
3) even if the state decided to forgo operation for static display it could be done more easily and on rails it once called home and placed under a trainshed or something.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that NH/FYRG are either above or beyond reproach/criticism, but let's be real on the other side of the argument as well.
It's not rusting away in Carver OR Waterville, and it IS under cover.

steamer69 wrote:How about LISTENING to restoration and preservation specialists when they give you ideas

It would be such a simple thing for preservation groups to do, but so many times the advice of the people who built it, or maintained it, or operated it, is ignored.

That kind of thing used to bother me. Nowadays I just figure its their money, and if groups want to waste it in ways that will prevent them from achieving their goals, it is their business.

There is partially disassembled equipment all over the country that has suffered from similar situations.

MX

I would agree with you if we were talking about the hobby of collecting insects, mx, but I can't write it off as being "someone's aquisition" due to the fact that a piece like this is an American icon for the Industrial Revolution period, really every American's aquisition. Also, by virtue of pulling the Yankee out of Edaville, I can't help but think that that one act contributed even minimally to Edaville's gradual erosion to say nothing of the fact that they took it away from many a persons view to an area which might be a desolate graveyard (in spite of being "protected" by "cover" as Cosmo puts it [a tarp]). All for whatever the primary motivation was, which I look at suspiciously.

3rdrail wrote:I would agree with you if we were talking about the hobby of collecting insects, mx, but I can't write it off as being "someone's aquisition" due to the fact that a piece like this is an American icon for the Industrial Revolution period, really every American's aquisition. Also, by virtue of pulling the Yankee out of Edaville, I can't help but think that that one act contributed even minimally to Edaville's gradual erosion to say nothing of the fact that they took it away from many a persons view to an area which might be a desolate graveyard (in spite of being "protected" by "cover" as Cosmo puts it [a tarp]). All for whatever the primary motivation was, which I look at suspiciously.

1)The Industrial Revolution was a period from 1750 to 1850
2) The fact of the FY's being sold by or from EDAville was more a sign of their downfall rather than a contributing factor. Same way that dizziness, nausea and headache are signs of heat exhaustion.
3) Whens the last time you were up in Lincoln? The HOBO RR is anything but a "desolate graveyard." The FY is open to view even when the RR is not operating. For a contrasting example, there are BUDD cars (also owned by parties other than Hobo but stored on their tracks/property) stored rusting about a mile away from the Hobo's HQ in Lincoln.

Cosmo wrote:
1)The Industrial Revolution was a period from 1750 to 1850
2) The fact of the FY's being sold by or from EDAville was more a sign of their downfall rather than a contributing factor. Same way that dizziness, nausea and headache are signs of heat exhaustion.
3) Whens the last time you were up in Lincoln? The HOBO RR is anything but a "desolate graveyard." The FY is open to view even when the RR is not operating. For a contrasting example, there are BUDD cars (also owned by parties other than Hobo but stored on their tracks/property) stored rusting about a mile away from the Hobo's HQ in Lincoln.

1) Sorry for the typo. Swap "revolution" with "ascendancy" (a period generally attributed to just prior to the Civil War to the beginning of WWII in America). Thanks for the notation.
2) subjective analysis
3) RE: It being a graveyard. It will be if it sits under a tarp discarded and forgotten until the first nor'easter blows the tarp off. Then some sitting unprotected, followed by some grafitti and trophy collecting. Finally, all of a sudden about a year after the fact, someone will write a post on RRN "wondering what ever happened to the Yankee ?" By then, it will have been shipped by trucks under other tarps to a Boston pier where it got whisked off to South Korea to be reincarnated as a Kia Sportage.
RE: My visit ? My son was 4, so....17 years ago, first and last time. (I, like most New Englanders, will not visit [again].)

Cosmo, I realize that this may be a sensitive issue, but what is it that binds you so to the Flying Yankee Restoration Group ? Is it their meticulous craftmanship ? The GALA (currently known as a CELEBRATION) banjo playing brothers ? Their deliverances of promises that you can bank on ? The Chocolate Trilogies ? Their timely performance ? Their GALAS (currently known as CELEBRATIONS) ? Their tarp ?

3rdrail wrote:

Cosmo wrote:
1)The Industrial Revolution was a period from 1750 to 1850
2) The fact of the FY's being sold by or from EDAville was more a sign of their downfall rather than a contributing factor. Same way that dizziness, nausea and headache are signs of heat exhaustion.
3) Whens the last time you were up in Lincoln? The HOBO RR is anything but a "desolate graveyard." The FY is open to view even when the RR is not operating. For a contrasting example, there are BUDD cars (also owned by parties other than Hobo but stored on their tracks/property) stored rusting about a mile away from the Hobo's HQ in Lincoln.

1) Sorry for the typo. Swap "revolution" with "ascendancy" (a period generally attributed to just prior to the Civil War to the beginning of WWII in America). Thanks for the notation.
2) subjective analysis
3) RE: It being a graveyard. It will be if it sits under a tarp discarded and forgotten until the first nor'easter blows the tarp off. Then some sitting unprotected, followed by some grafitti and trophy collecting. Finally, all of a sudden about a year after the fact, someone will write a post on RRN "wondering what ever happened to the Yankee ?" By then, it will have been shipped by trucks under other tarps to a Boston pier where it got whisked off to South Korea to be reincarnated as a Kia Sportage.
RE: My visit ? My son was 4, so....17 years ago, first and last time. (I, like most New Englanders, will not visit [again].)

Cosmo, I realize that this may be a sensitive issue, but what is it that binds you so to the Flying Yankee Restoration Group ? Is it their meticulous craftmanship ? The GALA (currently known as a CELEBRATION) banjo playing brothers ? Their deliverances of promises that you can bank on ? The Chocolate Trilogies ? Their timely performance ? Their GALAS (currently known as CELEBRATIONS) ? Their tarp ?

1) Forgiven.
2) No,... not subjective, it's what was happening. Flagg was selling thins off.
3) No,... not where it's at. it's not sitting in a forgotten place rusting, it's in the middle of their operation there aat Lincoln! It's it's not tucked away in the weeds, it's less than 100' from their platform!
GO LOOK!
4) Nothing. I have no horse in this race other than to see it preserved and maybe run again. I could care less if they rented a kiddie circus and charged kids and thier prents $5 or $10 just too look at it from the roller coaster.
My beef is that you portray the FY as sitting in a junkyard in Camden NJ waiting for the torch, and that is FAR from the truth!
If you wanna criticize FYG, go ahead, that's not my truck, but at least SEE where the thing is and what the situation is FIRST! Look with your own eyes! It's NOT "rusting away," it's UNDER COVER, which is WAY more than can be said for other stuff out there.
That's all.

Did we get our Don Ho fixation out of the way? Good. Let's not turn this into the NJT Nonsense thread. Although it was entertaining.

And let's remember I already had to lock one topic because of specific references to a specific person. You New England guys give me almost as many fits as the Joisey Boys! Let's leave the hyperbole' to this year's crop of political candidates, and no, that's not an invitation to discuss them. Talk all about what you think they can do better, etc. I trust you guys; don't make me regret it.

Thanks Volks.

So in the spirit of Jeff's posting, lets shift gears here for a minute and talk about the "fiscal cliff". No I don't mean the change in the tax rates the end of this year, or the collapse of the US dollar (which will be next year's crisis), I mean the challenge posed by the cost of the remaining work on the Flying Yankee.

Some very knowledgable individuals in the equipment building industry and in preservation have offered the opinion that the Flying Yankee is still $2 Million to $3 Million from completion. Lots of fundraising tactics have been tried in the past, from Galas, to selling seats, to auctioning pistons, to special events, and open houses. There has also been an effort to enlist corporate sponsors. None of these has come anywhere near the cash flow needed to maintain the flow of the restoration work. Most recent estimates have been around $60,000 a year in donations. At that rate, it will take 50 years to accumulate $3 million, and by the time you get all the money in hand, the cost of the rebuilding will be many times what was originally estimated. So where do you go for more money?

Kalmbach and Carstens? Kalmbach already contributed quite a bit to this project, earmarked to the restoration of the Winton engine if I recall correctly. I don't know about Carstens but I would expect their ability to provide support for something like this is rather limited.

How about historical and enthusiast groups that award grants? The NRHS for example? Well, what does the NRHS give out in grants every year, somewhere between $20,000 and $30,000? Suppose the number is $30,000, and they awarded it all to the Flying Yankee Restoration Group every year, year after year. At $30,000 a year from that source (or any other source), added to the $60,000 a year in donations to the RYRG, it is going to take how many years to get to $3 million? Thirty Three years and a couple months? That still isn't going to get the job done, by the time you have the money the rate of inflation will have increased the amount needed many times over.

The point being, the only realistic source of this magnitude of money is going to be a multi-millionaire donor, a large corporate sponsor, or a major corporation making a gift of machinery for use on the train. The fundraising needs to be done in three to five years, not a half century. So do you look for somebody who had a historical stake in the train? How many of the original equipment suppliers are still in business? EMD's involvement in the train was rather nebulous at best (it was really a Winton project), and EMD is now owned by Progress Rail, which is in turn owned by Caterpillar, so the historical linkage to this machine is just getting more and more remote.

And suppose you are a potential donor? Then aren't you really giving your money to a government agency, the New Hampshire Department of Transportation? This train isn't owned by a museum or an enthusiast group, it is owned by the State of New Hampshire.

It is quite a challenge. Got ideas?

MX

It's all Cosmo's fault, Jeff. He makes me do these things ! Speaking of Cosmo, all that I can say there Bud is that I don't really have to go up there, reason being that there are givens in this little tale of woe. 1) We can all tell just by looking at the posts on RRN that this project has continually dragged and stalled. 2) We can see from their own advertising that the Flying Yankee Restoration Group has acted abysmally, in my opinion, by; 2a) not placing this jewel inside a real barn or building for it's own protection, 2b) auctioning off precious original equipment including rare Winton engine pistons and the Winton's builders plate, 2c) made what has been characterized as extremely faulty decisions by individuals of professional status on RRN, 2d) at some point after considering and having money go into the restoration of the Winton Engine, removing the Winton, denouncing it as hopeless, and then announcing another completely different engine to replace it, when all the while there is reported to be a brand spanking new Winton engine sitting in it's original crating at the B&O Railroad Museum gathering dust, 2e ) reading the believable posts from not only persons who are familiar with the FYRG's operation, but an individual who was an "insider" in the Yankees restoration program who has come out and told us of the shameful practices of the FYRG, including a derivative of their official name called them by many similiar persons associated with the Yankee's restoration who feel victimized, and 2f (my personal favorite) the regular and yearly running of GALAS (currently known as CELEBRATIONS) in which when one looks at the announcement and menu for same, has difficulty in determining if it's a menu for a FYRG GALA (currently known as a CELEBRATION) or a First Class Dinner Menu from the maiden voyage of the Titanic. Additionally, entertainment, lavish hor douvres, entrees, appetizers, and lest we forget Chocolate Trologies that would collectively make Julia Child swoon, earmark these posh gatherings in what can only be described as in luxurious surroundings. Let's see now, did Ellis D. Atwood or Nelson Blount have galas at the Executive Court Banquet Facility or the like to sponsor their restoration efforts ?

3rdrail wrote:It's all Cosmo's fault, Jeff. He makes me do these things ! Speaking of Cosmo, all that I can say there Bud is that I don't really have to go up there, reason being that there are givens in this little tale of woe. 1) We can all tell just by looking at the posts on RRN that this project has continually dragged and stalled. 2) We can see from their own advertising that the Flying Yankee Restoration Group has acted abysmally, in my opinion, by; 2a) not placing this jewel inside a real barn or building for it's own protection, 2b) auctioning off precious original equipment including rare Winton engine pistons and the Winton's builders plate, 2c) made what has been characterized as extremely faulty decisions by individuals of professional status on RRN, 2d) at some point after considering and having money go into the restoration of the Winton Engine, removing the Winton, denouncing it as hopeless, and then announcing another completely different engine to replace it, when all the while there is reported to be a brand spanking new Winton engine sitting in it's original crating at the B&O Railroad Museum gathering dust, 2e ) reading the believable posts from not only persons who are familiar with the FYRG's operation, but an individual who was an "insider" in the Yankees restoration program who has come out and told us of the shameful practices of the FYRG, including a derivative of their official name called them by many similiar persons associated with the Yankee's restoration who feel victimized, and 2f (my personal favorite) the regular and yearly running of GALAS (currently known as CELEBRATIONS) in which when one looks at the announcement and menu for same, has difficulty in determining if it's a menu for a FYRG GALA (currently known as a CELEBRATION) or a First Class Dinner Menu from the maiden voyage of the Titanic. Additionally, entertainment, lavish hor douvres, entrees, appetizers, and lest we forget Chocolate Trologies that would collectively make Julia Child swoon, earmark these posh gatherings in what can only be described as in luxurious surroundings. Let's see now, did Ellis D. Atwood or Nelson Blount have galas at the Executive Court Banquet Facility or the like to sponsor their restoration efforts ?

Yes, but all of the above STILL does not amount to it "sitting in a graveyard"! Have I yet defended them for their mismanagement? No. Have I defended the "galas" other than to say "at least they tried?" No.
But MY point still stands. If some other group (The Smithsonian?) wanted to take the thing over, they could and they'd have a better time with it than they would with some other projects.
See, I can admit that not everything the FYRG has done has been right or perfect or even successful. I get that, I really do.

BUT...

I also know from hard working hands on experience that negativity to the extreme helps NOBODY.