The Flying Yankee

ThinkNarrow wrote:Any organization that puts on a "gala" hopefully does so with the result that there will be more money in the till after the event than there was before. If that isn't the case, i.e. they're "eating the seed corn" so to speak, then they are indeed idiots. However, if they end up making money, they're doing a standard fund-raising thing, despite the appearance of frivolity.

-John

The real key to one of these things is having a) a silent auction and b) an open bar. And make sure the bar opens about 2 hours before the silent auction. And make sure the auction has a lot of items of the sort that will make a woman say to her date "oooh, that's so pretty!"

mxdata wrote:Not any more. They are out of money...

OK, swell ! Just when you think that it couldn't get any worse... Well to be honest, I for one am glad that the FYRG will not have this iconic New England railroad beauty to Frankenstein, destroy, and mock any further...or do they ? This is a situation like the old saying addresses, "to not make a decision is to make the most drastic decision of all" (Dalai Lama at Sneaky Pete's Hideaway Lounge, Boston, Ma. 1967). So what happens now ? Is the Yankee just going to sit under a tarp until one day the tarp is gone, then later, the Yankee's gone, perhaps to have a car re-appear years later as a carnival hot dog stand ?

Something pretty close to that, Paul. They were going to complete the weatherization so they could take the tarp down, but then concerns developed over how the completed interior of the #2 car would fare if the train were exposed to sunlight. So my understanding is the tarp is going to remain up, at least for however long it lasts.

It really needs to be in a building.

MX

That's awful, MX. As you know, I like to joke around, but this situation truely turns my stomach with the way that this thing has been so horribly mishandled. Maybe it's a pipe dream - I don't know, not being in the RR biz, but would there be any possibility of a transfer of ownership to the shop at BET to have a historic piece of their own worked on ? Perhaps, even at the expense of adding a wing with all the money which has accumulated over these years. I may be wrong but I'll be willing to bet that with just a little auditing and detective work that tangible chunks of that fortune might be located in recoverable form. Or, has this turned into a situation where such a move would cause so much embaressment and possible corruption among protected politicians and the like that the whole thing is as insulated as a woolen sweater ?

Most, if not all, of the "notable" NH politicians involved in the original acquisition of the FY
will have left the state house by the end of the year, if not already. NH faces a slew of
financial issues over the next two years and beyond, which I will not list here. However,
you can pretty much bet the farm that the State will not be coming up with any funds to
get the restoration moving again. There have been proposals in recent years for the State
to sell "excess" property. I would not rule that out if some firm or organization came along
with a sizeable check. Beyond that, the FY is probably in limbo for the forseeable future.

Here is a little something to further ruin Paul's evening. (see his previous posting)

In all the years that people have been messing around with this train, the only actual repowering study that I have ever seen produced was the one done in the 1980s by an engineer at EMD when there was talk of it being brought out as a stand-in for the Pioneer Zephyr in a 50th anniversary celebration. It was a two-engine skid mounted package, one for propulsion and one for head end power, that installed directly in place of the Winton 8-201A and required no alterations to the carbody. Both engines were mounted on a single sub-base, and it would have bolted right in place on the existing engine support structure. The weight of the two (much smaller) engines approximated that of the Winton engine and the original generator, requiring no changes in truck springs or suspension. The two GE traction motors would have been replaced by two then-current production EMD export type traction motors. The entire package was intended to be supportable for another 25 years. It is now almost 35 years since it was prepared.

In all the years since then, with all the money that was spent, nobody has shown me any comparable proposal resulting from the restoration, identifying line by line the engines, rotating electrical equipment, switchgear, etc. needed to provide the train with modern propulsion and HEP. And in the last few years before the donations slowed down, the FYRG was reluctant to make any such determination because the emissions requirements were changing rapidly, and the train was to be a showcase for modern, clean propulsion. Probably now it would need to be Tier 4 to accomplish that mission, even though the state ownership might make it exempt.

MX

Additional with regard to Flying Yankee and the BET:

The facilities at BET are not designed to support an articulated train like the Flying Yankee. The center trucks cannot be serviced on the drop table, which is on a dead end track. If you could reach the center trucks without the end being off the track, the length of the equipment would be fouling the entire access across the shop. This is one of the problems of supporting the operation of an articulated train. It really needs access to shop facilities that are properly designed to accomodate its length and articulated construction. This was one of the really questionable aspects of the claims that the group intended to tour it all around the US. It needed special facilities to maintain it, and places where it could be turned.

MX

In regards to maintenance BET is out but I would think Southhampton with their Acela inspection facilities could at least nominally accomodate the train set.

Regardless, I don't think the latter is realistic anyways. The train needs to go to someone with enough money to operate it. Why this ever became NH state property in the first place is beyond me. The Flying Yankee should have gone to either Massachusetts or Maine were people who care about that kind of history actually have some small modicum of influence (and money) in state government.

As the saying goes, desperate times call for desperate actions (Congressman Anthony Weiner at Flashdancers Gentlemen's Club, NYC 2011). So, what are we going to do ? Anyone have a plan of action ? All that I can think of is that I would assume that a New Hampshire resident's initiative would carry probably more weight with a petition whereas, if my info is correct, the Yankee is owned by the state of NH. If someone wants to get a petition going, I commit to being the groups southern publicist, making appeals to groups in the Boston area, including the Boston Street Railway Association, of which I am a long standing member, the New Haven Railroad Historical and Technical Association, etc. Southampton would be terrific, gokeefe. I very much agree with you regarding it's placement in New Hampshire. Even if we got a commitment from the Science Museum to display it in their lobby, a magnificent appearing thought, that would be far greater than where it's fate is bringing her now. Think about it. Now's the time to act.

Here's the "real" answer (if there ever was one)....

There are three private entities that might be both a) capable and b) interested in taking over this trainset if "the price was right".

In no particular order they are:

1. Conway Scenic Railroad, North Conway, New Hampshire
2. Hobo Railroad, Lincoln, New Hampshire
3. Downeast Scenic Railroad, Ellsworth, Maine

I would think that the Railroad Museum of New England might also be a) interested and b) capable of taking over the trainset.

Beyond that I simply don't see any hope for an operating version.

The list of organizations that could handle the Yankee as a static display is probably orders of magnitude larger but I don't think that's what we're really talking about at this point. If the State of NH were to say lease the Flying Yankee to CSRR for $1/year then I think we would have a potentially serious business proposition, perhaps with some kind of accompanying stipulation regarding education (but not necessarily requiring the use of the Flying Yankee itself).

I may have omitted a museum or two in Southern New England but those are the ones that I know best and which I'm guessing could at least consider owning or running the trainset.

I should probably give an honorable mention to the 470 RR Club but of course note that at least as of right now (and my notional understanding of the state of their finances) such a project would be outside their means as well.

Other than the above this trainset is doomed to sit in place for many more years to come.

I believe that Conway Scenic would certainly be capable of doing it, however, it'
s the interest that's in question there.

I see this as a save involving not only another entity that wants to take over the Yankee but operate it as well as a wonderful but doubtful chance. Possible ? Yes. It would be terrific, especially with the B&O Winton on a limited run basis. Probable ? Probably not. I think that the better chance lies with the entity which won't be hit with a large maintenance, insurance, and logistics bill on a continuing basis into the unforseeable future. I think that we are at the point whereby the patient is on the ground gasping, and we better do something fast like get him to a hospital in either an ambulance or go-cart otherwise we're going to lose him.

I don't think that any of the "operating" entities in New England have the estimated $3 million in financial resources to turn this empty shell of a streamlined train into a repowered traveling showcase of modern technology, particularly considering the current economic environment. The will and the talent, maybe, but not the financial resources. And there isn't enough payback from carrying tourists to successfully recover the expense. That is why it sits where it is, in the condition it is in.

Run it with the Winton engine it had, or any other Winton 201A? The first cracked cylinder head, scuffed liner, failed piston, or scored injector plunger puts you out of business and forces you to reverse engineer parts at tremendous expense. Anybody want to bet the cost of a restoration that such a failure will not happen, with an engine that was well known for such failures?

To quote Eugene Kettering on the 201A: "We decided there had been no problems with the dipstick". In other words, everything else in the engine had problems.

So the alternative is static display, to reassemble it with whatever can be found of the Winton and GE parts left in the containers at Lincoln, and put it somewhere that the public can easily access and view it where it will be well cared for, and maybe have a couple hundred year lifespan.

I think the best permanent host, with the resources to make such a display a success, and make it accessible to the largest number of people, is the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. It is after all a Budd product, built in Pennsylvania. Put it at a place that respects and honors the history of the company that built it. And GE was also based in Pennsylvania. Winton on the other hand was an Ohio company, but the state of Ohio couldn't even muster much interest in the Winton-EMC gas electric car at the museum in Worthington, so why even consider them in the placement of this gem.

Keep it in New England? Is there really any chance that somebody can come up with the additional $3 million, or more, to complete the restoration? So far nobody has.

It may be time to let go of the Flying Yankee.

MX

Ohh I'd hate to see the Yankee leave NH again! Concord, NH was a big deal for the Yankee, being its principle shop. I'd rather see it placed in view of I-93 if it is to be stuffed an ad mounted. The stainless steel would require minimal maintenance. It's too bad there aren't any unused bridges over 93. Perhaps it could be set on top of the Hooksett tolls? It would certainly be safe there!

p42thedowneaster wrote:Ohh I'd hate to see the Yankee leave NH again! Concord, NH was a big deal for the Yankee, being its principle shop. I'd rather see it placed in view of I-93 if it is to be stuffed an ad mounted. The stainless steel would require minimal maintenance. It's too bad there aren't any unused bridges over 93. Perhaps it could be set on top of the Hooksett tolls? It would certainly be safe there!

If it appears impractical to restore it to operation, consideration could be given to emulating the Pioneer Zephyr display in Chicago. I recently toured it and it was very well done (from a general public viewpoint) with an arrangement somehow vibrating the train as if passing over rail joints at slow speed as one walked through it and lifelike animated figures in the obs car carrying on a conversation while video views simulated movement along the rails at each obs window. See: http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/ex ... er-zephyr/

That said, it might be less expensive to actually restore to operation.