Pair of Boys (play) fighting on Lakeshore Limited

lirr42 wrote:Yeah, and some people don't take this * seriously enough.
We're just lucky the title of your post isn't "Boy killed by another boy after fight on Lakeshore Limited"

Perhaps, but I doubt 6-7 year olds are going to be killed play fighting, regardless of how intense it sounds.

911 what is the nature of your emergency? Yes Im on an Amtrak train I think the number is 48 and there are two boys fighting, 911 operator are there any weapons has anyone been drinking. No no like I said there are two young boys fighting and Im afraid one might kill the other...

Dispatcher to train 48 over, there is a report of two young boys fighting on your train, please bring your train to a safe stop at ABC crossing were you be met by law enforcement. Engineer 48 roger out.

Head end 48 to the counductor over, Conductor answering. Yes sir, been informed by the dispatcher we are to bring our train to a stop at ABC crossing and wait for the police as there are two young boys fighting on the train, over. Conductor 48 what???

Police finally show up, but because they were not exactly sure were ABC crossing was located you just lost an hour, they get on train and ask conductor were the problem is and dosent really know for sure, once they find the problem they may or may not do anything. That would depend on if anyone was willing to step foward as a witness, momma got a little upset, or if there truly was a danger to life or limb. now weve just lost another hour.

Wouldnt have been easier to tell the train crew in the first place, lirr

Fan Railer wrote: This is getting old. Some people never learn? I'm not that same person, nor did I read that topic in depth, so don't pull that on me. I'm not even going to bother responding to any more of this stuff. This is getting ridiculous. I'm sorry I'm not a 45 year old with experience to know how to "best" handle this kind of situation, and as evidenced by previous posts on the topic, the issue has already been addressed and readdressed. It has already happened, so why are we all now jumping on the bandwagon. You guys take * way too seriously.

I'm not sure why you consider the crew negligent when they weren't around, however, as much as I hate to say it, you did the right thing by not confronting the parent(s.) It's a very tricky situation and since you have no "authority," it could escalate into a situation like this:

Passenger recounts shooting terror on SEPTA bus

A brief fair use quote says it all:

For Lefenus Pickett, what began as a routine ride home on SEPTA's Route 47 bus became a near-death experience June 18 when a woman who took offense at his parenting advice called friends who strafed the loaded bus with semiautomatic weapons fire in North Philadelphia.

A Philadelphia courtroom was riveted today as Pickett narrated a video made by seven cameras on the bus that showed two men, brandishing a handgun and an rifle, taking aim at Pickett who then jumps over his seat and runs with other passenger to the front as bullets fly through the bus windows.

While this is an extreme example, it is what passengers and crew have to consider when intervening in domestic disputes. Next time, gather your belongings, ask an attendant or the conductor to move seats and explain to them why you want to do this.

Additionally, since I saw the ORIGINAL post, title and follow up to David Benton's query, my advice is think carefully about how you phrase things.

Couldn't have said it better myself. People who use violence, such as the mother and children in this case, may carry knives or guns, or may just whip your behind with their fists. Irrational people will continue to be irrational.

ThirdRail7 wrote:

Fan Railer wrote: This is getting old. Some people never learn? I'm not that same person, nor did I read that topic in depth, so don't pull that on me. I'm not even going to bother responding to any more of this stuff. This is getting ridiculous. I'm sorry I'm not a 45 year old with experience to know how to "best" handle this kind of situation, and as evidenced by previous posts on the topic, the issue has already been addressed and readdressed. It has already happened, so why are we all now jumping on the bandwagon. You guys take * way too seriously.

I'm not sure why you consider the crew negligent when they weren't around, however, as much as I hate to say it, you did the right thing by not confronting the parent(s.) It's a very tricky situation and since you have no "authority," it could escalate into a situation like this:

Passenger recounts shooting terror on SEPTA bus

A brief fair use quote says it all:

For Lefenus Pickett, what began as a routine ride home on SEPTA's Route 47 bus became a near-death experience June 18 when a woman who took offense at his parenting advice called friends who strafed the loaded bus with semiautomatic weapons fire in North Philadelphia.

A Philadelphia courtroom was riveted today as Pickett narrated a video made by seven cameras on the bus that showed two men, brandishing a handgun and an rifle, taking aim at Pickett who then jumps over his seat and runs with other passenger to the front as bullets fly through the bus windows.

While this is an extreme example, it is what passengers and crew have to consider when intervening in domestic disputes. Next time, gather your belongings, ask an attendant or the conductor to move seats and explain to them why you want to do this.

Additionally, since I saw the ORIGINAL post, title and follow up to David Benton's query, my advice is think carefully about how you phrase things.

Thanks for somewhat agreeing with me. It's good to know I'm not alone in my decision not to confront. About the crew negligence though, I should have mentioned that throughout the half hour, conductors and train car attendants filed through the car about 3 or 4 times, and never said a thing; just walked by and ignored it as if nothing happened.

Fan Railer wrote: Thanks for somewhat agreeing with me. It's good to know I'm not alone in my decision not to confront. About the crew negligence though, I should have mentioned that throughout the half hour, conductors and train car attendants filed through the car about 3 or 4 times, and never said a thing; just walked by and ignored it as if nothing happened.

That being said, did you consider the crew members are not moonlighting DYFS employees acting as baby sitting, psychologists who listen to conversations unless engaged? It most likely just seemed like "din" and even if it wasn't, it is just Mr Trainer mentioned:

Trainer wrote:I imagine that Amtrak conductors see this sort of thing every day. If nobody complains when kids act like this, their attitude about breaking it up is lose/lose. What do they have to gain by stepping in the middle of it if nobody cares enough to bring it to their direct attention? Let the little animals fight if that's what the occupants of the car enjoy being in the middle of.

Remember, the situation is just as volatile for the train crew if they approach as well. Tadman's assertion aside, who would want to jump in the middle of such as scene, particularly if no one complained? If you turn it around, imagine if the crew took action prior your recording. Then, SHE writes a letter complaining about the crew. You're off the train without being on the witness list and the crew is fighting for their jobs.

This is the conductor's Kobayashi Maru!

Let me put it in simpler terms Fanrailer: If you were buried up to your neck in fecal matter and someone went to urinate on your face, would you duck?

Normally I am not one to step in an intervine, or even post my two cents but you are all ready to hang the train crew, why?

I am a conductor for Amtrak and while my own personal opinon on the matter doesnt really matter, my professional stance is I would have done the same. For those of you who may have noticed (or not noticed) Amtrak is becoming the new greyhound, our fares are lower and more people are unable to afford the gas to go anywhere. Most people that hve the money fly, and Amtrak scrapes the bottom of the barrel. There are those such as yourself who have the time and the money but PREFER the train, but you are a select minority. I wish that wasn't the case but it is. MOST COACH PASSENGERS RIDE AMTRAK BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS...not all but most.

This class of person has the mentality of a prisoner who is 'disrespected'. They figure if they scream and yell they will get their way, and they do. They have been taught that its ok to be rude and disrespectful to all those around them as long as they get what they want, and sadly our scociety supports that theory.

Now had I been on the train in my official capacity I would have simply ignored it, unless sombody complained to me. Why, well not only are you looking at delaying a train with a few hundered people because some idiot mother doesn't have the sense god a gave a goat, but also because nothing good will come of me becoming involved with out other people complaining. I will have to call the police, who in their opininon have better things to do that respond to Amtrak. If they even decide to show up the officers are usualy trying to figure out how to avoid having to take the person off the train and "waste their time" when they should be dealing with problems in their own town. Second, when the mother comlains that the conductors are mean, nasty, racisit, rude to Amtrak I get hauled into the office because I did the right thing and have to explain to my superiors my decisions and possibly be suspended with no pay if they, who were not present, decide I didn't act accordingly. Its much eaiser to explain away a passenger calling in becasue sombody was obnoxious and the crew did nothing because I never saw it and nobody brought it to my atteniton. Third, now I am going to have to listen to this lady complain and verbally assult me(substituded for lack of a better term) for however long it takes for the cops to show up, if the even respond. Fourth, management never remembers when you do the right thing, all they know is if your name continually comes up from passenger complaints or not. If you actually enforce the Passenger Conduct Codes you get lots of complaints, so in managments eyes your just mean spirted and 'always' throwing people off for no reason. If you ignore it, they are happy because nobdy complains and if you do get a complaint its eaiser to explain it away.

So In hindsight, its just going to create a world of drama to step in. Is it right? No, but its the sad truth. In todays scociety this is perfectly acceptable behavior regaurdless of my personal feelings. So before you 'hang the conductor' perhaps we should get scociety to wake up and stop allowing disrespuctful behavior to go un-punished. In the golden age of railroading what the conductor said was law, nobody questioned it and if you did you found yourself in the middle of no-where. In todays would a conductor has no authority because everybody is afraid of a lawsuit, its our job to oversee the trains operation and make sure we don't violate saftey rules accoridng to Amtrak. If there is a life threatening emergency we should call for police or fire, but holding the train for a loudmouthed mother who has no common sense and is allowing her kids to playfight just isint acceptable to Amtrak. It wasn't life threatening and nobody was seriously hurt its not worth the potential lawsuit, or the loss of my carrear because I did the right thing.

Sorry if thats not what you wanted to hear, but its the sad truth.

f59phi2014 wrote:Normally I am not one to step in an intervine, or even post my two cents but you are all ready to hang the train crew, why?

I am a conductor for Amtrak and while my own personal opinon on the matter doesnt really matter, my professional stance is I would have done the same. For those of you who may have noticed (or not noticed) Amtrak is becoming the new greyhound, our fares are lower and more people are unable to afford the gas to go anywhere. Most people that hve the money fly, and Amtrak scrapes the bottom of the barrel. There are those such as yourself who have the time and the money but PREFER the train, but you are a select minority. I wish that wasn't the case but it is. MOST COACH PASSENGERS RIDE AMTRAK BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS...not all but most.

This class of person has the mentality of a prisoner who is 'disrespected'. They figure if they scream and yell they will get their way, and they do. They have been taught that its ok to be rude and disrespectful to all those around them as long as they get what they want, and sadly our scociety supports that theory.

Now had I been on the train in my official capacity I would have simply ignored it, unless sombody complained to me. Why, well not only are you looking at delaying a train with a few hundered people because some idiot mother doesn't have the sense god a gave a goat, but also because nothing good will come of me becoming involved with out other people complaining. I will have to call the police, who in their opininon have better things to do that respond to Amtrak. If they even decide to show up the officers are usualy trying to figure out how to avoid having to take the person off the train and "waste their time" when they should be dealing with problems in their own town. Second, when the mother comlains that the conductors are mean, nasty, racisit, rude to Amtrak I get hauled into the office because I did the right thing and have to explain to my superiors my decisions and possibly be suspended with no pay if they, who were not present, decide I didn't act accordingly. Its much eaiser to explain away a passenger calling in becasue sombody was obnoxious and the crew did nothing because I never saw it and nobody brought it to my atteniton. Third, now I am going to have to listen to this lady complain and verbally assult me(substituded for lack of a better term) for however long it takes for the cops to show up, if the even respond. Fourth, management never remembers when you do the right thing, all they know is if your name continually comes up from passenger complaints or not. If you actually enforce the Passenger Conduct Codes you get lots of complaints, so in managments eyes your just mean spirted and 'always' throwing people off for no reason. If you ignore it, they are happy because nobdy complains and if you do get a complaint its eaiser to explain it away.

So In hindsight, its just going to create a world of drama to step in. Is it right? No, but its the sad truth. In todays scociety this is perfectly acceptable behavior regaurdless of my personal feelings. So before you 'hang the conductor' perhaps we should get scociety to wake up and stop allowing disrespuctful behavior to go un-punished. In the golden age of railroading what the conductor said was law, nobody questioned it and if you did you found yourself in the middle of no-where. In todays would a conductor has no authority because everybody is afraid of a lawsuit, its our job to oversee the trains operation and make sure we don't violate saftey rules accoridng to Amtrak. If there is a life threatening emergency we should call for police or fire, but holding the train for a loudmouthed mother who has no common sense and is allowing her kids to playfight just isint acceptable to Amtrak. It wasn't life threatening and nobody was seriously hurt its not worth the potential lawsuit, or the loss of my carrear because I did the right thing.

Sorry if thats not what you wanted to hear, but its the sad truth.

I completely understand this stance, and to an extent, I respect the stance from those wanting to keep their jobs, especially in today's economy and job market. However, perhaps there is a line to be drawn with certain behaviors? I don't want to hang the train crew specifically on this, but if it has gotten to the point where conductors are afraid to enforce the rules simply because they don't want to get sued and possibly lose their jobs, even if the situation warrants enforcing those rules, then maybe, JUST MAYBE, there's something wrong with the picture. I'm still thinking about how exactly to phrase what I say in the letter I will be sending in, but I'm glad I'm waiting so that I can get a few more perspectives on the situation, instead of rushing and sending in a scathing, on sided complaint that could possibly cost the crew their jobs or pay.

Well, the airlines have marshalls on board. Could a lower level version of this be applicable to certain trains?

The conductor just described provided a very clear description of the train operatings crew side of this. While obnoxious, and annoying, the play fighting is not life threatening. With the resources they have, Amtrak is doing a good job. At least people are riding the train.

I've been so lucky on my overnight trips on 48/49 on coach. The worst thing I've encountered are a couple of people who obviously hadn't bathed in several days. But boy I DID realize each time how lucky I had been.

This is the chance you take in coach. But obviously the conductor should have been summoned.

This is an unfortunate situation where, thanks to society, there is NO winning move.

JLJ061 wrote:This is an unfortunate situation where, thanks to society, there is NO winning move.

Ditto =/

Its your right to send the letter, but I guess you still dont understand your gonna open a very large can of worms for the train crew. They are going to be on the carpet for something they may or may not even know about. They will be shown your letter and then questioning will begin, unless you have ever gone through something similar you really cant grasp scope of the whole process. Ive been through it, why this and why that didnt you this and didnt you that WHY WHY WHY. Then its thank you for your time and your left to sweat for a coupke of weeks while they make there mind up on what they are going to do if anything.

In short dude leave it alone others on here have told you the samething. On the railroad you are guilty until proven guilty, dont put there jobs on the line just because you feel the need to complain about a mother who has proven there should be a licence to have kids.

Mr. Fan Railer, I've stayed away from this one, but now I join in.

Think back to the movie "The Graduate"; remember how Benjamin (Dustin Hoffman) was given one word of advice by Mr. McGuire (Walter Brooke)?????

My one word to you at such time you contemplate another Amtrak overnight trip-----------

SLEEPER