LIRR "Whitestone Branch"

I have a few pages of the report on THIS PAGE

There's no good reason to turn the PW into a subway. Travel time would go through the roof. The PW line and the 7 train are more than just SRO during rush hour as it is. I wouldn't suggest turning ANY LIRR into a subway except for maybe the subway taking over one of the branches down to Valley Stream, but even then, the RR needs all 4 tracks between the two branches.

RetiredLIRRConductor wrote:A few times in my career on the RR, there was talk of giving the port was branch to the city transit authority, and letting the number 7 train run to port wash.
From what I understand, the people in Great neck Manhasset and plandome flipped out.
Seems they would go out of their way to demonize John Rockers assesment of a ride on the 7 train.
Yet, when they heard it might run through their backyards, they suddenly got a case of John Rockeritis.
NOT IM MY BACKYARD!! MY PROPERTY VALUE WILL CRASH.
Good old Limousine Liberalism at its best. Do as I say not as I do

Sounds typical of the residents up there. Would NYCTA extend the subway past the city limits? I would think they would just stop at the city line, last station on PW branch in NYC is what, Douglaston?

robertwa wrote:I have a few pages of the report on THIS PAGE

Thank You.

NYCS, Nice plan for a model RxR, but in real life there would lots of trouble from the NIMBYs, the Tree Huggers as well as other enviormental groups. And lastly the Post Office facility won't move out unless they want to

My grandfather told me he used to watch the trains go by on the Whitestone branch when he was a kid, lived in that town his entire life 1922-2010. He said the line ended by Tropicana, which is located at the corner of Powells Cove & 154th St, at the waterfront.

NYCS wrote:WOW! I had no idea that it was actually built! Why in the hell did they rip it up?

The answer was partly in one of the links kuzzel540 provided way back at the beginning of this thread:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/wstone3.html

The documents are difficult to read because they were scanned at a relatively low resolution, but the document under the heading "L.I.R.R. Information Bulletin September 1926" explains the factors which prompted the LIRR to "quit-claim" (abandon) the Whitestone Branch ROW and give the property over to New York City.

The document cited two major factors:

1) The rapid transit system was expanding at the time. The bulletin mentions that the Flushing Line was only a few weeks away from opening, and as far back as 1917, there had been talk about the city possibly buying the Whitestone Branch from LIRR, to convert it from LIRR use to become a branch of the subway. (Guess if it happened, it could have been the #8 line today.) Due to the city stalling here and there on talks, the LIRR was still unsure as to the fate of the line -- would the city be buying it or not?

2) Vehicular traffic had been increasing, and the government had issued an order to start eliminating grade crossings on the Whitestone Branch. An order had already been issued to eliminate four crossings, and the Public Service Commission said another eight would have to be eliminated in a future phase of this plan. Altogether, it would cost $4,000,000 to carry out this grade separation for all 12 crossings. The LIRR would have to pay 50%, while the city and state would split the other 50%.

Basically, LIRR, which was still privately owned at the time, said it didn't want to spend that much money to upgrade a line that it might not own for much longer anyway. (Apparently, LIRR wasn't confident that it recover the $2M it would be spending on grade separation, if the city did ultimately choose to acquire the branch for subway service.)

The author of the bulletin said that LIRR would just as soon abandon the line and give the land to the city, a move that would save everyone all that money, and give the city the option to do as it pleases with the land -- be that an eventual rapid transit line, a bus line, or whatever.

Immediately following on the above webpage, another scanned document from 1929 cites the fact that the branch had operated at a loss of $125K in 1928, and was on pace to lose $150 during 1929. The document again cited the cost of grade separation -- which had now been estimated up to $4.6M. The LIRR believed that expansion of "the city's rapid transit 5-cent fare systems and busses" would eventually eliminate passenger traffic on the Whitestone Branch, while an increase in trucking was already chipping away at the branch's freight business.

Just so folks can visualize the branch:
http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/whites ... estone.htm
Whitestone Branch page


A google composite of the entire line here of above 2008:
http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/whites ... n1flat.jpg
Large size!

nyandw,
The modern over lay map on your photo is not of the actual Whitestone branch but rather a fictional map of branch in the general vicinity of where it left the Port Wash branch to the trucking consignee. More like the Flushing-College Pt secondary. He has it branching off railroad East of the creek, the Whitestone branch separated West of the creek.
Its a nice "what if" map, Providing the businesses on his map wanted rail service and were able to pull the right strings and get it done.
For those modelers who have the space and want a freight only secondary type track for you switching layout this would be a nice size layout.

workextra wrote: "...The modern over lay map on your photo is not of the actual Whitestone branch but rather a fictional map of branch in the general vicinity of where it left the Port Wash branch to the trucking consignee. Its a nice "what if" map, Providing the businesses on his map wanted rail service and were able to pull the right strings and get it done..."

I concur. Thanks for the clarification for other folks. The purpose of this "stitched together" photo map was to provide folks with a general idea of where it was; as most of us have been born after 1932. Robert Emery Notes:

Built, Flushing (Bridge Street) to College Point, by the Flushing & North Side R.R.: 1868
Entire branch abandoned from just west of Flushing Creek drawbridge to Whitestone Landing: 2/19/1932


A map indicating the abandoned branch. http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/whites ... Branch.jpg


Queens County, NY 1931 Hagstrom Map showing branch
http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/whites ... romMap.jpg

I have updated the website page composite image as follows: Entire branch abandoned from just west of Flushing Creek drawbridge to Whitestone Landing: 2/19/1932 Info: Robert Emery. Composite map above of branch ROW to illustrate the locale of the line. 2008

http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/whites ... estone.htm
This was not intended as a modeling exercise nor a current view of the branch. Thank you for pointing this out.

Generally asking:
Providing the Whitestone branch was here today, would it have similar ridership at the Port Washington branch?
Would the some of the Port Wash riders divert to the Whitestone Branch?
Would The service offered be split between Port Wash and Whitestone Landing 1 train an hour on each branch except rush hour?
Would the Port Wash be Half Hour service and the Whitestone branch be scooted from "Whitestone Jct" (Mets W.P.)?
This is a unique branch, I didn't make it into the "commuter era" so to say. and and ripped out February of '32. Had it survived Did it have potential to be beneficial today.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or facts on this?

The Tool has Whitestone 1930 ridership figures around the office somewhere -- just has to look for them.

I believe the branch was busy, but its growth had stopped as most development was complete. Remember that outer Queens was the suburbs of yesteryear. Up until the early 1950's, for example, Far Rockaway was the busiest eastern terminal.

Why was it abandoned? I'm not sure. Certainly the LIRR was pressed for cash, going into bankruptcy, coming out of the Depression, facing a State government that was denying fare increases while soaring taxes. The City of New York was relentless with taxes and franchise fees. There was a round of abandonment at the time and it's possible that rapid transit had drained some ridership from the branch.

There was also massive pressure to eliminate grade crossings, which wasn't going to happen on that branch, and install signal systems on New York City rails. The branch didn't have signals, relying on a "staff system" that used a rather manual absolute block: A chunk of wood removed from a hut and carried by the conductor, along with the train's schedule gave the train authority to operate the block.

Anyone else have any ideas on this one?

Up until the late 70s (perhaps 80s?) a small section of the branch (stub) remained in use, crossing underneath the #7 elevated bridge (Roosevelt Av) for local switching in the Willets Point area (Iron Triangle).

I believe that was the Corona yards. They also cut up retired equipment there too.
Tool, If you have figures and other information regarding the branch It would be nice to see it. Thank you.
I never rode through the area to scout out the branch, But last time this topic came up I believe there were several locations where the branch was still visible though greatly encroached on. Things such as the ROW markers, Buildings there were there and some other tel-tail signs remained besides the obvious segment of track along Flushing creek.

[quote="workextra"]"...I believe that was the Corona yards. They also cut up retired equipment there too..." /quote]


Roosevelt Ave bridge under the #7 line, facing southwest. The track in the foreground is the remains of the old Whitestone branch, looking towards the old 1964 World's Fair site.

The cut-up car is in the lower end of Corona Yard, where a LOT of scrapping went on: regular passenger cars, parlors and diesels. This track accessed the yard. The work train is eastbound on the Port Washington branch. Info: D.Keller/T. Darnell Photo: Tim Darnell

http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/odds_ends.htm Other material on the yard 30% down the page: Corona Yard