ALP 44's

acelaphillies wrote:People on the SEPTA forum are saying

aem7 wrote:SEPTA is looking to purchase, not lease, two or three ALP-44s from NJT.

Here is the thread: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 72&t=95851. What's the deal? I keep hearing the ALP-44s are done, then I hear they're not. Let's sort this out! If they are coming to SEPTA that would be sweet. Oh, and by the way ns3010 nice pics!

The railfan in me would love to see these units live on for at least a few more years with SEPTA, but the rest of me has difficulty envisioning it. First, there is the sale issue, which would require SEPTA to lease them until they can be sold. Even then, it has been said again and again that these units are very tired. They're younger than SEPTA's AEM7's, but have been run much harder. The ALPs run continuously day in and day out, while the AEM's make one trip per day and sit around all weekend (this has always been my understanding of it, but please correct me if I'm wrong). While I don't think the ALP's are in any worse shape than SEPTA's units, they're definitely not new units.
We'll just have to wait and see what happens...

And thanks for the compliments on the photos! I'm pleasantly surprised on how they came out considering I shot them with my iPhone (my camera is playing a game of hide-and-seek, and apparently has found a very good hiding spot...). I found this app called "Fast Camera" that allows you to take a lot of continuous photos much faster than the regular camera app, and they still come out decent. I would highly recommend the app for anyone that may need it for "railfanning on the go" or whatever else.

Now that I've put in a plug for that app, back to the ALP's...

the sarge wrote:Exactly JT. The SEPTA PP sets are like grandma’s car: only make one round trip a day, gently ran, and stay in for the weekends. The NJT sets are like NYC Taxis driven by a bi-polar cabbie on crank. Two different paradigms in operation and cannot be equally compared within a “time” period.

Does anyone know the average mileage of the SEPTA PP’s today and the NJT ALP 44’s when retired?

The SEPTA ALP44 and AEM-7's have not had any kind of overhaul since their deliveries, and are badly in need of some major TLC. The AEM-7's are 25 years old this year, and while once reliable, they have been suffering increasing road failures or waking up dead several times a week over the past year or two. A couple weeks ago, two motors were out due to one road failure and one waking up dead one morning, forcing train cancellations and Silverliners to sub for two PP sets for nearly a week.

Silverliner II wrote:

the sarge wrote:Exactly JT. The SEPTA PP sets are like grandma’s car: only make one round trip a day, gently ran, and stay in for the weekends. The NJT sets are like NYC Taxis driven by a bi-polar cabbie on crank. Two different paradigms in operation and cannot be equally compared within a “time” period.

Does anyone know the average mileage of the SEPTA PP’s today and the NJT ALP 44’s when retired?

The SEPTA ALP44 and AEM-7's have not had any kind of overhaul since their deliveries, and are badly in need of some major TLC. The AEM-7's are 25 years old this year, and while once reliable, they have been suffering increasing road failures or waking up dead several times a week over the past year or two. A couple weeks ago, two motors were out due to one road failure and one waking up dead one morning, forcing train cancellations and Silverliners to sub for two PP sets for nearly a week.

Silverliner would you be so kind as to explain to me what "waking up dead" means? I've never heard that one. Thanks.

beanbag wrote:

Silverliner II wrote:A couple weeks ago, two motors were out due to one road failure and one waking up dead one morning, forcing train cancellations and Silverliners to sub for two PP sets for nearly a week.

Silverliner would you be so kind as to explain to me what "waking up dead" means? I've never heard that one. Thanks.

Basically, the term "waking up dead" was coined by a poster on the SEPTA forum here in reference to the AEM-7 of any SEPTA push-pull set breaking down without even managing to get out of the yard for its assigned trip after a good night's rest, causing the train to be cancelled, usually with no replacement due to lack of available equipment, especially at outlying yards.

Silverliner II wrote:

beanbag wrote:

Silverliner II wrote:A couple weeks ago, two motors were out due to one road failure and one waking up dead one morning, forcing train cancellations and Silverliners to sub for two PP sets for nearly a week.

Silverliner would you be so kind as to explain to me what "waking up dead" means? I've never heard that one. Thanks.

Basically, the term "waking up dead" was coined by a poster on the SEPTA forum here in reference to the AEM-7 of any SEPTA push-pull set breaking down without even managing to get out of the yard for its assigned trip after a good night's rest, causing the train to be cancelled, usually with no replacement due to lack of available equipment, especially at outlying yards.

I've noticed that... one looked very dead by jenkintown was dead for a good few days, pans locked down etc, was a few weeks ago.

I still think it'd be worth double heading the power with NJT 44's till silverliner 5 deliveries catch up enough to be backup.

25Hz wrote:

Silverliner II wrote:Basically, the term "waking up dead" was coined by a poster on the SEPTA forum here in reference to the AEM-7 of any SEPTA push-pull set breaking down without even managing to get out of the yard for its assigned trip after a good night's rest, causing the train to be cancelled, usually with no replacement due to lack of available equipment, especially at outlying yards.

I still think it'd be worth double heading the power with NJT 44's till silverliner 5 deliveries catch up enough to be backup.

Funny you should mention double heading. Back in February of 2011, when the entire fleet was still available, I shot this video of a rare SEPTA push-pull moment:

Two AEM-7's With The Power Of One. And A Half.

It came about because one AEM-7 had inoperative HEP, but all traction motors worked. The other AEM-7 had working HEP, but both traction motors on one truck had failed and were cutout. This set ran like this for four days until the unit with the HEP issue was repaired over the weekend after this video was shot.

Keep in mind also, for those of you who might not know, SEPTA already has one ALP-44 along with its AEM-7s, so it would not be a totally new locomotive to deal with.

If the plan is to use these ALPs to cover assignments while SEPTA's equipment is sent out for overhauls nothing would change in terms of service. The trains would still break down and all would be normal in SEPTAland.

ns2110 wrote:If the plan is to use these ALPs to cover assignments while SEPTA's equipment is sent out for overhauls nothing would change in terms of service. The trains would still break down and all would be normal in SEPTAland.

But, if nothing is done, the breakdowns will continue until a critical life-ending failure of the AEM-7.

If the ALPs are acquired/leased, there is an ample source of spare parts sitting up in Port Morris that can be used for quick fixes, rather than remanufacturing or creating a replacement part in the shop. It's good enough for me.

Also, not mentioned in this thread but mentioned in the SEPTA thread, what kind of condition are the Comet 3s in?

While the ALP44s are old and worn out, they still ran relatively reliably. Its not like NJT stopped maintaining them and pulled them OOS when they had a failure (well they might not have fixed EVERYTHING towards the end....) but most were in running condition when parked. Also, the handful that Amtrak borrowed over the past year haven't been sitting as long and had recent work done to them (for Amtrak use) and would be the easiest to get running again.

The comet 3s need a good good scrubbing and obviously testing to be brought in date for passenger service. There are some parts missing from some cars but i would say a good number of them are intact and complete, just need some time with a powerwasher on the inside.

However, I bet the door operation on those cars is going to be even crankier now they have been sitting for so long. The unreliable doors im sure is what really did those cars in.

jlr3266 wrote:If I may ask a serious question...anyone know what kind of razor blades these will become?

Gillette fusions. I cut a sweet deal with the boys from Gillette for priority on the locos. Free blades for life... do you know how much those things cost? No brainer.

ns3010 wrote:

cruiser939 wrote:

Amtrak7 wrote:From the MMC tour: 5 at a time are being prepped for storage with windows boarded and pans removed. Eventually all will be moved to Port Morris. The tour guide believed that some NJT rules/locomotive financing rules are preventing their disposal. SEPTA is looking into "borrowing" them.

They aren't NJT rules preventing NJT from getting rid of the ALP-44's, it's federal rules since there were federal funds involved with the acquisition of the locomotives. It's amazing how stupid many things government related are. NJT had a taker for every single ALP-44 who wanted to take delivery of them asap and the feds wouldn't let us move them because they hadn't fully depreciated in contract value yet. That's the government for you...

At the risk of asking a series of questions that I will probably not get answers to... I'm going to ask them anyway. I know I might not get answers (because it's "secret" information, they're stupid questions, or just because Cruiser just doesn't feel like answering ), but what do I have to lose (probably a lot)

1. What's the "required depreciation value?" Also, at what point (give or take) will this value be reached (I realize the timelines are likely different for the different groups of units)?

2. Who was the taker for the units? What was to be done with them once they passed into new hands (as in were they to be rebuilt for service, put in service as is, scrapped, or something completely different)?

3. Assuming that the possibility of other means of sale/disposal do not come up between now and the "OK to sell" date, would this taker still be interested in them once they depreciate enough in value?

4. After they depreciate in value and are "legally" put up for sale, say for all intents and purposes that there are no buyers at that time. Is there any idea on how long they would be kept "for sale" before they would just be scrapped?

I think that's it. *Awaiting sarcastic/mocking response*

Your questions aren't stupid, don't worry. They are quite valid and I'd understand how many people here might be interested in the answers. I like to think that in addition to copious amounts of sarcasm, that I share lots of knowledge and information with this board. However, there are many finer things about the work my colleagues and I do that I will not be able to share. Much of what you are asking falls into that category unfortunately but I'll see what I can do.

1. That goes into contract's specifics which I will not disclose. You can file an OPRA request if the information is truly that important but I think that it'd be a waste of time personally.

2. Again, since contractual talks are still underway with many parties, I can not disclose who the parties are. Suffice it to say that if this company had taken possession of them, you would find it extremely hard to ever see an ALP-44 in person again.

3. The company in question was looking to plug an immediate shortage in their electric motor fleet. I can not honestly say whether or not they will still be interested in taking receipt of any ALP-44's at such time that they become available.

4. If there are no takers for the ALP-44's when they are allowed to be moved than I would imagine that their destiny lies rather quickly at the cutting blades. NJT will continue to pursue interested parties during such time that they must remain in our possession but when the time comes that NJT can part with these locomotives, rest assured that they will not be staying here.

beanbag wrote: Silverliner would you be so kind as to explain to me what "waking up dead" means? I've never heard that one. Thanks.

I'll just leave this here

cruiser939 wrote: Your questions aren't stupid, don't worry. They are quite valid and I'd understand how many people here might be interested in the answers. I like to think that in addition to copious amounts of sarcasm, that I share lots of knowledge and information with this board. However, there are many finer things about the work my colleagues and I do that I will not be able to share. Much of what you are asking falls into that category unfortunately but I'll see what I can do.

Thank you very much for your responses. I absolutely understand that a lot of the information involving these units is currently confidential, and I 100% respect that (as do I respect you for keeping the confidentiality, while sharing what you can as you can). I cannot thank you enough for the endless information that you have shared with us over the years, especially since you have absolutely no obligation to do so.

In regard to the sarcasm, while some others may have issues with it, I very rarely, if ever, have. I would concur that on multiple occasions, it is warranted, not to mention that it simply adds to the fun. I don't think it subtracts from your vast knowledge and information in any way; in fact, it adds personality to the information. You have my permission to continue posting your normal mix of knowledge and sarcasm.

cruiser939 wrote:1. That goes into contract's specifics which I will not disclose. You can file an OPRA request if the information is truly that important but I think that it'd be a waste of time personally.

That's the question that I least expected an answer to anyway. That information is not that important to me, especially since I have no direct connection to it, not to mention that at least some it will probably be public in time.

cruiser939 wrote:2. Again, since contractual talks are still underway with many parties, I can not disclose who the parties are. Suffice it to say that if this company had taken possession of them, you would find it extremely hard to ever see an ALP-44 in person again.

Again, completely understandable. I have some guesses though, but they are absolutely nothing more than that. My best guess is that they would be for export somewhere, probably somewhere in Europe...?

cruiser939 wrote:3. The company in question was looking to plug an immediate shortage in their electric motor fleet. I can not honestly say whether or not they will still be interested in taking receipt of any ALP-44's at such time that they become available.

Great, that's all I was looking for. Thanks.

cruiser939 wrote:4. If there are no takers for the ALP-44's when they are allowed to be moved than I would imagine that their destiny lies rather quickly at the cutting blades. NJT will continue to pursue interested parties during such time that they must remain in our possession but when the time comes that NJT can part with these locomotives, rest assured that they will not be staying here.

Ok, that's what I figured as well. NJT has expressed no desire to keep them, so I would agree that they would likely try to get rid of them as quickly as possible, in whatever manner necessary.

Thanks again for sharing your info with us, "oh enlightened one", and let the sarcasm continue!

cruiser939 wrote:

jlr3266 wrote:If I may ask a serious question...anyone know what kind of razor blades these will become?

Gillette fusions. I cut a sweet deal with the boys from Gillette for priority on the locos. Free blades for life... do you know how much those things cost? No brainer.

They don't have to be expensive. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... UG9qYTJMsI