"signals & switch' problems after millions of dollares spent

I gues I am perplexed at how the "signals" and "switch" failures continue to bedevil SEPTA. How many millions of dollras do you have to spend to get adequate installation of thes items. Who is responsible to review and accept the work and determine if it will actually function?

R5Dailyrider wrote:I gues I am perplexed at how the "signals" and "switch" failures continue to bedevil SEPTA. How many millions of dollras do you have to spend to get adequate installation of thes items. Who is responsible to review and accept the work and determine if it will actually function?

Consider the environment in which this equipment is installed. It is exposed to extremes of weather (heat, cold, moisture) and vibration. Although every effort is made to prevent it, a lightning strike is going to wreak havoc, especially with electronic equipment. Vandalism and theft is another problem as was demonstrated this past weekend when some idiot was caught stealing signal cable near Whitford on the Paoli/Thorndale line.

I heard from a little birdie that today's service suspension wasn't because of electrical problems like SEPTA announcements were saying. It was a switch problem caused by a SEPTA employee driving a NHIR train through a switch that was set wrong, and well, that didn't work out too well. Opps, caught in a lie!

On another forum, someone posted pics of part of the train in daylight, parked on a siding in Glenside. There also appears to be a few Septa employees working on the switch. I guess that explains it!

bikentransit wrote:I heard from a little birdie that today's service suspension wasn't because of electrical problems like SEPTA announcements were saying. It was a switch problem caused by a SEPTA employee driving a NHIR train through a switch that was set wrong, and well, that didn't work out too well. Opps, caught in a lie!

Well either you misunderstood or your lil birdie gave you some bad info. The wire train was working within Carmel interlocking. Meanwhile the train dispatcher was posting a new dispatcher, they could not display the signal so the new dispatcher issued a rule 241(permission past a stop signal). The dispatcher supposedly had the line routed for the Warminster line and this is the only way they can issue a 241 is if they can verify the route is lined properly. It wasnt and the train bust thru a switch and also a movable point frog and came within almost 1 car length from hitting the Wire Train. I understand the NH&I crew has been barred from Septa territory. No Septa engineers were involved in the NH&I move.

Presumably, this incident kept the wire train crew from finishing their work at the interlocking, so the SEPTA announcements were technically correct, though not telling the whole story (which, I should note, it looks like nobody has yet, and it would be a bad idea for SEPTA to go public with information that could have turned out to be wrong).

I don't have my rulebook here--does 241 require restricted speed? If so, sounds like at least that part worked since a collision was avoided.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:I don't have my rulebook here--does 241 require restricted speed? If so, sounds like at least that part worked since a collision was avoided.

Rule 241 is indeed a Restricted Speed move. Unfortunately for the NH&I crew, Restricted Speed also requires stopping within one-half the range of vision short of any misaligned switch.

thirdtrick wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Unfortunately for the NH&I crew, Restricted Speed also requires stopping within one-half the range of vision short of any misaligned switch.

Thank you, Third. That's why I wanted someone with the book in hand (or in memory) to give us chapter and verse.

No problems I saw this morning's rush hour at Carmel (or yesterday afternoon for that matter).

Rule 241 is verbal permission by a stop signal from a dispatcher.

dispatcher says: "Train number XXXX with engine XXXX pass the stop signal on track X at XXXX and proceed (N,E,W,S) to track Y"

train repeats the same info, and then dispatcher confirms and they go past the stop signal at an interlocking.

However, the move is made at Restricted Speed (Rule 80), so you must be able to stop in 1/2 the range of vision, short of, in this case, misaligned switches.

Another "however" is that the dispatcher must also make sure the proper route is lined. Just a small part of Norac Rule 241:

Before giving permission to pass the Stop Signal, the Dispatcher (or Operator) must determine that:
1. Affected appliances are properly positioned. If the position of a switch cannot be determined, the
route must be inspected.
2. No opposing or conflicting movements have been authorized.
3. Blocking devices have been applied to protect against opposing movements whenever the Stop
Signal involved governs entrance to a track where Rule 261 is in effect.

At least no one was hurt...too many times, engineers take restricted speed as only being able to go 15mph....there is much more to it than that!! Yes, the switch was broken, and they didn't stop in time for that, but it could have been MUCH worse if they didn't stop before striking the wire train....

Amtrak67 of America wrote:

bikentransit wrote:I heard from a little birdie that today's service suspension wasn't because of electrical problems like SEPTA announcements were saying. It was a switch problem caused by a SEPTA employee driving a NHIR train through a switch that was set wrong, and well, that didn't work out too well. Opps, caught in a lie!

Well either you misunderstood or your lil birdie gave you some bad info. The wire train was working within Carmel interlocking. Meanwhile the train dispatcher was posting a new dispatcher, they could not display the signal so the new dispatcher issued a rule 241(permission past a stop signal). The dispatcher supposedly had the line routed for the Warminster line and this is the only way they can issue a 241 is if they can verify the route is lined properly. It wasnt and the train bust thru a switch and also a movable point frog and came within almost 1 car length from hitting the Wire Train. I understand the NH&I crew has been barred from Septa territory. No Septa engineers were involved in the NH&I move.

Presumably the first stop signal that they encountered and had to be talked through was at LYNN. I heard them come through Roslyn (still awake on adrenaline from Daytona) and it was quite some tiime before I heard them blow for Ardsley. It was considerably longer than the typical 4-5 minutes.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

thirdtrick wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Unfortunately for the NH&I crew, Restricted Speed also requires stopping within one-half the range of vision short of any misaligned switch.

Thank you, Third. That's why I wanted someone with the book in hand (or in memory) to give us chapter and verse.

No problems I saw this morning's rush hour at Carmel (or yesterday afternoon for that matter).

Word whispered to me is that it was not NH&I, but PNR’s W230 train.

Clearfield wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

thirdtrick wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Unfortunately for the NH&I crew, Restricted Speed also requires stopping within one-half the range of vision short of any misaligned switch.

Thank you, Third. That's why I wanted someone with the book in hand (or in memory) to give us chapter and verse.

No problems I saw this morning's rush hour at Carmel (or yesterday afternoon for that matter).

Word whispered to me is that it was not NH&I, but PNR’s W230 train.

Yes but that railroad is half owned by the NH&I. The fact of the matter remains that a major boo boo occured which could've turned out to be seriou and the engineer is banned from operating on septa because he violated restricted speed. It's ashame for the engineer but rules are rules.

Amtrak67 of America wrote:The fact of the matter remains that a major boo boo occured which could've turned out to be seriou and the engineer is banned from operating on septa because he violated restricted speed. It's ashame for the engineer but rules are rules.

Absolutely. I remember the last time an engineer ran throuch a switch on the Warminster line resulting in a head-on.

Thanks for all the details concerning the "near" accident. It appears that SEPTA has a long way to gos in providing accurate information rather thanself serving mis-information. Seems like the individual in Control Center should also be relieved of thier duties pending retraining?

R5Dailyrider wrote:Thanks for all the details concerning the "near" accident. It appears that SEPTA has a long way to gos in providing accurate information rather thanself serving mis-information.

No, that was not "self-serving misinformation" they were giving out, and I'm not aware of any inaccuracies. As I said, they may not have been reporting the whole story at the time, but if they had tried to do so, they would have been at greater risk of misinforming people.