Delaware Av Subway could solve Penns Landing Problems

Penns Landing for three decades now has been a total failure. This is largely because visitors to the city (us locals know how to get there) have a hard time getting there. I-95 basically cuts the riverfront off from the rest of the city. Sure there are a few plazas and bridges that link the Landing with Front Street, but these are under used: and used mostly by South Street Strollers. If an extension of the Market Street Subway were built under Delaware Ave to South Street or beyond then this would allow people west of 5th street a 5 minute ride directly to Penns Landing. The line would have to diverge around 4th street since the line would have to descend about 15 feet to allow for the grade change at Front Street. The city should build this, not Septa since it would spur development. The Main Reason the Latest developer pulled out of Penns Landing was because he said that no one would come from Center City.... Sure they would if a five minute subway ride was available.

The 2nd Street station is awfully close. From there, you are literally one block from a bridge to Penn's Landing. This very expensive extension would take people a very short distance beyond where the line currently goes (we're talking fractions of a mile, if one assumes that every E-W block is .1 mile and every N-S block is .075 or .05 mile), which hardly seems like it will generate enough traffic to be a worthwhile ROI (for comparison, think of NYC's big waterfront tourist trap, the South Street Seaport, and consider how you have to walk across busy NYC roads to get there from the nearby subway station... not much different except NYC's waterfront attraction is actually worth visiting).

Before someone even suggests it (I know someone will): Yes, there are tracks that already run down the middle of Delaware Ave/Columbus Blvd but they're standard gauge and the MFL won't fit on them, so that can't be reused for this, either. Better to use the tracks in Columbus as a standard-gauge light rail system to link all the recreational areas the Philadelphia City Planning Commission is planning for the NE waterfront with Penn's Landing and let people walk two blocks to transfer between that and the MFL (either at 2nd & Market or the Spring Garden Station)

Oh, and incidentally, I've never known any tourist (I've spoken with a few) who've said they "couldn't find" Penn's Landing -- get off at 2nd Street on the MFL, and let me know if you see any big honkin' signs that say "Penn's Landing". What they normally say is that they "don't find" it worth visiting. The approach (over a highway and major city street) ain't pretty, but it's not enough to make visitors become disoriented and accidentally wander into North Philadelphia.

The city? They get in the way of surface trolley restoration; what makes you think they will build a subway...?

And if Penn's Landing has lasted for three decades and is not closing up, the assessment of "total failure" is misplaced.

Running some kind of trolley along Del Ave would be a big help, and considering the tracks are unused North of South Street, I don't see a big deal with it. Unforunately, when the city re-landscaped Del Ave from the Bridge to Frankford Ave, they didn't give a thought to extending the tracks up that far to meet the 43, or even further to meet the 15. At one point in time, I believe tracks went up the Avenue and along Penn Treaty park, behind the Tri-Gen station and over to the Port Richmond yard.

Remember, there WAS a tourist trolley line on Delaware Ave. many years ago, operated (I think) by the Buckingham Valley Trolley Association. They had several regauged cars but political and economic conflicts forced them out of service.

One cool thing I remember was that a commercial was filmed using one of the Red Arrow 80-series covered completely in a bright blue skin (Blue Trolley Group??). It was some kind of spray-on coating that supposedly just peeled off when the commercial was finished, but I remember finding bits of it still stuck in crevices when I rode the car during the next summer.

Didn't one also show the "product" (a Hyundai) pacing an S IV on some side-of-the-road location in the DelVal?

Anyone else remember seeing that scene?

Reporting from Dallas, TX.,
Garry

Trackseventeen wrote:Penns Landing for three decades now has been a total failure. This is largely because visitors to the city (us locals know how to get there) have a hard time getting there. I-95 basically cuts the riverfront off from the rest of the city. Sure there are a few plazas and bridges that link the Landing with Front Street, but these are under used: and used mostly by South Street Strollers. If an extension of the Market Street Subway were built under Delaware Ave to South Street or beyond then this would allow people west of 5th street a 5 minute ride directly to Penns Landing. The line would have to diverge around 4th street since the line would have to descend about 15 feet to allow for the grade change at Front Street. The city should build this, not Septa since it would spur development. The Main Reason the Latest developer pulled out of Penns Landing was because he said that no one would come from Center City.... Sure they would if a five minute subway ride was available.

Too bad you weren't around in the 1908-39 period, since there WAS and El line on Delaware Ave. It served the ferry terminals at Chestnut and South St [ one operated by the Pennsylvania RR, and the other by the Reading Railroad]. When the Ben Franklin Bridge opened in 1926, the ferry business went under, and most of the connecting Public Service trolleys were bustituted because riders could ride buses directly to Center City, rather than the very cumbersome transfer from trolley, to boat, to El train. The ferries were combined first, and held on until 1955. The El ridership dropped continously from 1926 to 1938, when the decision was made to close the Delaware Ave line down. Of course back in those days, the waterfront was mostly warehouses, docks, stockyards, and industrial areas surrounded by the slums of [now] Society Hill.

Now today, Penn's Landing and the Old City/Society Hill is one of the poshest areas of the city. And the HORRIBLE blunder of running I-95 through the area is a testament of the Anal-retentiveness of road builders in this country. The constant failures of Penn's Landing is caused by the lousy access, both by transit and by car.

I was thinking it would also be a neat idea if we had a trolley running on Del Ave, at standard gauge of course, that went up to Market Street on that huge ramp monstrosity. Funny thing is how the city went out of its way to get the trolleys off Market Street to alleviate congestion, and what does SEPTA do today? All you see are buses up and down Market Street. Although its not just SEPTA, its NJT, Big Bus co, tourbuses, ride the ducks, etc.

But the one thing people on Del Ave don't have is easy access via transit to downtown. The 25 isn't used by anyone there and if you need to get to the El, you have a nice walk to 2nd Street. I'm referring to the new condo building that looks like it's ready to sail away.....

Springfield Tripper wrote:Didn't one also show the "product" (a Hyundai) pacing an S IV on some side-of-the-road location in the DelVal?

Anyone else remember seeing that scene?

Reporting from Dallas, TX.,
Garry

I know this is getting O/T, but yes, I remember that commercial. I believe it was filmed out near Lenni on the West Chester branch.

Now back to you regularly scheduled thread...

Springfield Tripper wrote:Didn't one also show the "product" (a Hyundai) pacing an S IV on some side-of-the-road location in the DelVal? Anyone else remember seeing that scene?

Reporting from Dallas, TX.,
Garry

I remember that commercial well. That was southbound on Old Lincoln Highway next to the R3-West Trenton Line.

No doubt, the Silverliner IV would eventually make it to Center City first, LOL LOL!!!

Hey Irish::::


Tell me what there is at Penns Landing worth doing, and then maybe Ill recant my opinion of it being a total failure.... When developers wont touch a piece of land its a a failure. Plus dont tell me about the new condo high rises, yes they are a good start, but Im talking commercial.... Something that would give Philly a world class waterfront Like CHItowns Navy Pier or NYs South Street seaport. Theres nothing to do at Penns landing Its a failure Thanks to I-95 not being totally underground between fitzwater and callowhill

NYs South Street seaport.

Frankly, I think the Seaport is a bust too. Baltimore and San Francisco are the two gems.

The real problem with Delaware Ave is the 2 great barriers to CC, I-95 and Delaware Ave itself. Its difficult to cross making it so close to CC, yet so far. Very pedestrian unfriendly. Yes their is the overpass to Market Street but it is a bit of a hassle for everyday residents there to use.

If we're talking trolley on Del Ave as a solution, why not run it up to Market Street as a spur and have it loop back to Del Ave. That way it could deliver people right to 2nd Street. Or maybe another solution would be to have it spin around the Spring Garden Station.

And I would also run it all the way to the Sports Complex.

Umblehoon wrote: The approach (over a highway and major city street) ain't pretty, but it's not enough to make visitors become disoriented and accidentally wander into North Philadelphia.

Actually I know a Jerseyite that actually did this (tried to drive to Penns Landing from NJ and ended up at 5th & Lehigh!! True story...